A question for the Atheist

Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:53 am » by **Daemonfoe**

unitb166er wrote:There no evidence to support the conclusion that morality could have evolved without a form of religion to act either as structural scaffolding or antagonistic motivation synthases.

There is also no evidence that morality would not exist w/o religion.

Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:05 am » by **Tinman4higher**

daemonfoe wrote:
This is your opinion. In no way whatsoever is this fact. By your logic w/o God people are exactly the same as they are now except they have no morals.

You need to ask yourself a question. "Why do I have morals?" If you answer is that God gave them to you, and you think that you wouldn't know right from wrong if God hadn't told you what to do, then I feel very sad for you. If you don't realize that you want to be treated the way others want to be treated, if you don't comprehend basic cause and effect, if you can't understand that no one likes to live in pain, then I feel very sorry for you.

I think that is the definition of psychopath isn't it?

Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:10 am » by **Daemonfoe**

tinman4higher wrote:
daemonfoe wrote:
This is your opinion. In no way whatsoever is this fact. By your logic w/o God people are exactly the same as they are now except they have no morals.

You need to ask yourself a question. "Why do I have morals?" If you answer is that God gave them to you, and you think that you wouldn't know right from wrong if God hadn't told you what to do, then I feel very sad for you. If you don't realize that you want to be treated the way others want to be treated, if you don't comprehend basic cause and effect, if you can't understand that no one likes to live in pain, then I feel very sorry for you.

I think that is the definition of psychopath isn't it?

yes or sociopath.

Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:13 am » by **Spock**

But that is the key. That is the nature of God written on humans hearts. It's what separates us from animals. "Fairness".

Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:16 am » by **Roadkill**

My dog has eaten part of a ham bone and literally gave it to another dog. Picked it up and dropped it in front of the other dog. Does that mean my dog has a soul?

Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:16 am » by **Daemonfoe**

spock wrote:But that is the key. That is the nature of God written on humans hearts. It's what separates us from animals. "Fairness".

I would think it's something more like the ability to communicate feelings. Children have no concept of fairness until it is thoroughly communicated to them.

Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:25 am » by **Spock**

Science would say that fairness comes from an overwhelming understanding of unfairness and not wishing to reap the consequences of being treated unfair. It is actually a developmental stage when a child hits around 4 - 6, that they find joy in sharing.

Where does the joy in sharing and giving come from?

If it's innate, and not learned, couldn't it be that is was programmed into our psyche? You could call it through evolution, maybe, but I would think it has always been a part of being human, just like hunting to eat.

Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:27 am » by **Constabul**

morals are a matter of societal normal, that change with the times. many examples of this are present in life / history.
morals are not a universal concept, that all people share. Ones version of right and wrong, good or bad, varies depending on who is observing / expressing it. it could be argued that there is not a good or bad, right or wrong, but just existence.

There are plenty of examples " kind" acts by animals, as there are perceived ill acts on animals too. We are not separate from animals. I can post any number of "feel good" stories where animals have aided, other animals.

this is not a proof, nor dis proving of a "god" or "gods"

Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:32 am » by **Roadkill**

constabul wrote:morals are a matter of societal normal, that change with the times. many examples of this are present in life / history.
morals are not a universal concept, that all people share. Ones version of right and wrong, good or bad, varies depending on who is observing / expressing it. it could be argued that there is not a good or bad, right or wrong, but just existence.

There are plenty of examples " kind" acts by animals, as there are perceived ill acts on animals too. We are not separate from animals. I can post any number of "feel good" stories where animals have aided, other animals.

this is not a proof, nor dis proving of a "god" or "gods"

I agree, and I would go further to say that Animals are not lesser beings. They are equal to us, and in many ways superior.

Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:34 am » by **Spock**

I should mention, that when I said "science" above, I shouldn't cast that as every person of or following science - I should have said "certain researchers believe".

And I do agree Constabul - morals are largely based on social norms. But I do believe their is an underlying fabric of "fairness" that transcends these.

Morals and dogma can be beaten into any of us through society and even things (on a shorter time line) much more nefarious.

But when it comes to morals - an interesting thing to consider is how China wishes to keep their human rights under the rug because human rights don't necessarily always follow party lines. The rights seekers in China are crying out against injustice within their society. Same is happening in Iran with their zealous theocracy. And even in our country, where there is an outrage against the standard quo and the continuing gap between the top 1% and everyone else.

Societies can shape morals - but fairness will always scream out.