A question for the Atheist

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PostThu Apr 07, 2011 9:54 pm » by Jeckk


truthdefender wrote:Daemon, I will use your fans post to answer some of your comments. First, if their is no God, nothing matters, as it is just one man's opinion of what is right in his eyes vs., the same from another man. And if your position would then be that the majority rules, well the majority on this planet still believes that their is a supreme being, so you my friend are ruled out. And if there is a God, nothing else matters, which speaks for itself. That covers agnosticism.


If there is no god, nothing matters? It matters to me when I experience pain, it matters to me when I experience joy, etc. And through empathy I'm able to understand how it matters to other conscious beings as well. Can you explain to me why I'm wrong?

The equation should work out so that every man lives his life without worry of anyone negatively interfering. For example, If I worship the flying spaghetti monster and you worship skuzzlebutt, and both beings order us to kill the other and their followers, then both our religions impose negativity on each other and that does not work for either person. If you however choose to simply keep your way of being in your space of the universe, and they keep theirs in their space, everybody wins. Majority rule doesn't even apply.

And to me, if there is no god everything DOES matter because I'm no longer bound to another entity's plan, I can create my own path which to us individually, matter.

truthdefender wrote:2nd, If lashing out at people is how you expect to wake them up from their delusion, PM in 10 years and let me no how that's going. People with anger like yours saturating the world is what is harmful to us all.


I agree, however sometimes causing someone to feel anger is the only way to wake them up to the truth. When you express anger, it's basically your mind telling you that it doesn't approve of the situation's logic.

truthdefender wrote:3rd, thanks for taking all that time to respond to me using quotes one at a time. I haven't figured out how to do that yet :cheers:


basically do [!quote="truthdefender"]MESSASGE[!/quote] without the exclamations.

truthdefender wrote:Lastly, Jesus IS the Truth, and since their is constant attacks on Him and Christianity from the current deluded generation, I thought it was fitting. But you can call me faithdefender, or douchebag, or not at all, I just don't care. But I will always be lurking to correct erroneous info, and defend the Truth, and maybe, God willing move someone's heart to seek. In your responses to me you wrote repeatedly about evidence and facts etc..., the greatest proof is the one which takes place inside a person's heart and mind when they pursue Him in all sincerity. :cheers:


For the record I'm not the person you were replying to, however I wanted to mention that in terms of the person called Jesus of Nazareth, I almost completely agree with everything he stood for (I say almost because I don't know what he did that wasn't recorded, as well as some minor differences of opinion.) however...I'm not 100% convinced he even did exist or has supernatural abilities, and probably never will be unless it's physically shown to me. And I'm not talking some CGI trick, I mean I want to see someone that I know is dead, come back to life or something similar before I even THINK about claiming it's real.

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PostThu Apr 07, 2011 10:20 pm » by Truthdefender


Nice post, I understand your position. As far as my nothing matters comment, that it is in regard to conflicting morality amongst humans. If there is no overriding moral law, which I believe God wrote on every human heart, then there is no right and wrong--just your opinion and mine. I might feel its right to slap old ladies and put kittens in the microwave, you might not. With out Divine law, who declares which opinion is right. In know this is over the top and too simplistic at the same time, but I feel it sums it up.

Thanks for the heads up on the qoutes :cheers: When I really need to lay it out for someone, I'll give it a shot!


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PostThu Apr 07, 2011 10:31 pm » by Jeckk


truthdefender wrote:Nice post, I understand your position. As far as my nothing matters comment, that it is in regard to conflicting morality amongst humans. If there is no overriding moral law, which I believe God wrote on every human heart, then there is no right and wrong--just your opinion and mine. I might feel its right to slap old ladies and put kittens in the microwave, you might not. With out Divine law, who declares which opinion is right. In know this is over the top and too simplistic at the same time, but I feel it sums it up.

Thanks for the heads up on the qoutes :cheers: When I really need to lay it out for someone, I'll give it a shot!


I think I understand what you're saying when you say god wrote morality in every human heart. When we step outside ourselves, stop being egotistic, and THEN make decisions we can see a pattern. I call that pattern flow, some call it god, everyone has their own way to describe or label it. When thinking outside ourselves we all want the same thing (peace, harmony, excitement, betterment, etc) simply because we're no longer acting to keep our individual bodies alive. We become part of this universal flow of cause and effect, which before ego existed, was about peace, harmony, etc.

And when I look at religion and it's guidelines, for example the ten commandments, I simplify it. All 10 commandments can be simplified into 1 commandment, "Thou shall not negatively impose on others". That's what I feel is written in my heart, which is why I think most people agree with the commandments. They're a little more specific, and imo leave some important factors out, but people relate to them because its a step in the right direction.

Anyone who doesn't live in ego, whether religious or not, we all share the same common goal of peace and prosperity.

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PostThu Apr 07, 2011 11:03 pm » by Daemonfoe


truthdefender wrote:Daemon, I will use your fans post to answer some of your comments. First, if their is no God, nothing matters, as it is just one man's opinion of what is right in his eyes vs., the same from another man. And if your position would then be that the majority rules, well the majority on this planet still believes that their is a supreme being, so you my friend are ruled out. And if there is a God, nothing else matters, which speaks for itself. That covers agnosticism.

2nd, If lashing out at people is how you expect to wake them up from their delusion, PM in 10 years and let me no how that's going. People with anger like yours saturating the world is what is harmful to us all.

3rd, thanks for taking all that time to respond to me using quotes one at a time. I haven't figured out how to do that yet :cheers:

Lastly, Jesus IS the Truth, and since their is constant attacks on Him and Christianity from the current deluded generation, I thought it was fitting. But you can call me faithdefender, or douchebag, or not at all, I just don't care. But I will always be lurking to correct erroneous info, and defend the Truth, and maybe, God willing move someone's heart to seek. In your responses to me you wrote repeatedly about evidence and facts etc..., the greatest proof is the one which takes place inside a person's heart and mind when they pursue Him in all sincerity. :cheers:


If you want to prove that there is a God, then try using some facts. Otherwise your posts are pretty much equal to troll posts.

If there is no God, then please explain to me why nothing matter. And if there is a God, please explain to me why anything matters? Either way, your reasoning will be pure opinion. not fact or truth.
The two choices we have are something starting from nothing, or something existing infinitely. These are both paradoxes. The existence of everything is therefore a paradox. -daemonfoe

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PostThu Apr 07, 2011 11:10 pm » by Daemonfoe


truthdefender wrote:Nice post, I understand your position. As far as my nothing matters comment, that it is in regard to conflicting morality amongst humans. If there is no overriding moral law, which I believe God wrote on every human heart, then there is no right and wrong--just your opinion and mine. I might feel its right to slap old ladies and put kittens in the microwave, you might not. With out Divine law, who declares which opinion is right. In know this is over the top and too simplistic at the same time, but I feel it sums it up.

Thanks for the heads up on the qoutes :cheers: When I really need to lay it out for someone, I'll give it a shot!


This is my biggest problem with arguments for God existing.

truthdefender wrote:If there is no overriding moral law, which I believe God wrote on every human heart, then there is no right and wrong--just your opinion and mine.

This is your opinion. In no way whatsoever is this fact. By your logic w/o God people are exactly the same as they are now except they have no morals.

You need to ask yourself a question. "Why do I have morals?" If you answer is that God gave them to you, and you think that you wouldn't know right from wrong if God hadn't told you what to do, then I feel very sad for you. If you don't realize that you want to be treated the way others want to be treated, if you don't comprehend basic cause and effect, if you can't understand that no one likes to live in pain, then I feel very sorry for you.
The two choices we have are something starting from nothing, or something existing infinitely. These are both paradoxes. The existence of everything is therefore a paradox. -daemonfoe

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PostThu Apr 07, 2011 11:39 pm » by Toxsick


Might as well throw in my 2 cents...

How does the pollen spread with the wind? If you ever go to a flower field on a windy day you can see it happen. It's also why we have pollen count, not hard to figure out. it's almost like people who believe in creation do not look for answers and blindly believe in what the bible says. Fear the bible my be wrong? Because it will contradict what the bible says? Just like my mother, who is religious, thought that the mountains were put here by god and just doesn't get that it was plate tectonics. they don't wanna know and don't need to know other then "it was god".

To Spock who said "they are soliloquies of something that happened on a much greater scale". Maybe that's not taking it "literally", but it is believing everything that is said in one way or another.

Someone else was saying that we have overriding moral laws that god wrote on everyone's heart. Obviously that's not true or a lot of the nasty things that humans do wouldn't happen. Stealing is wrong, i get it. Killing is wrong, i get it. I don't need a book to tell me that otherwise i would think it's ok. I call it the law of DUH. It simply comes down to weather or not you give enough of a crap to not do those things. Sorry but it really is that simple.

Daemonfoe asked "how is evolution designed?"
You are already asking that question in a way that makes it sound like something had to make it up. how about..."how does evolution work"? how bout that? let me ask you this, do you believe in adaptation? is adaptation not evolution or at least a form of it? I think believers in creation attack evolution as much as they do because they know that if it were "proven" in there eyes it would be the death null for weather or not got exists and that scares the shit outta them.

Think of the universe as a big living machine, kind of like our own bodies are. Our bodies are very efficient and wastes nothing and i believe the universe is the same way. And i know what your thinking, "HA, a machine, intelligent things make machines". No, a single sperm and an egg created my body, nothing intelligent..unless you consider sperm intelligent.

it's one thing to believe in the facts that science gives us, but it's another to ONLY believe in the facts that science gives us. To believe in science to a point where something simply isn't true because science hasn't proved it yet. e.g., science cant prove there is a soul therefore there is no afterlife because science cant prove it. Don't believe in science so hard that you ignore other possibilities. A problem that a lot of people have is they like to use the knowledge that they "we" have atm to explain everything. it's like the cave men explaining complex weather patterns based on what they knew....AT THE TIME. Yes we do tend to think we know a lot about a lot, but on the grand scale we know less then 1% of what there is "to know". We like to have the answer's to everything now, asap, but we just don't. Yes that kinda sucks and is frustrating, but that's ok that we don't. there is nothing wrong with that. Crap just takes time, deal with it.
"If I never disappoint you, how can I surprise you?"

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PostFri Apr 08, 2011 12:13 am » by Daemonfoe


toxsick wrote:Daemonfoe asked "how is evolution designed?"
You are already asking that question in a way that makes it sound like something had to make it up. how about..."how does evolution work"? how bout that? let me ask you this, do you believe in adaptation? is adaptation not evolution or at least a form of it? I think believers in creation attack evolution as much as they do because they know that if it were "proven" in there eyes it would be the death null for weather or not got exists and that scares the shit outta them.


I think you misunderstood the question I was posing. Spock was saying that he believes in God and evolution, but evolution was designed into the system. My question to him was more rhetorical than anything. What I asked him in follow up, was, what would happen in a situation where genes were killed off but evolution was not "designed into the system".

I also firmly do not believe in adaption. I believe in survival of the fittest. At least, I don't believe in adaption in the sense that species intentionally mutate in a certain direction. What I believe in is that all species mutate in all directions all the time, and whoever has more children wins. The only thing required to carry on genes is to survive long enough to have offspring.
The two choices we have are something starting from nothing, or something existing infinitely. These are both paradoxes. The existence of everything is therefore a paradox. -daemonfoe

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PostFri Apr 08, 2011 12:17 am » by Daemonfoe


toxsick wrote:it's one thing to believe in the facts that science gives us, but it's another to ONLY believe in the facts that science gives us. To believe in science to a point where something simply isn't true because science hasn't proved it yet. e.g., science cant prove there is a soul therefore there is no afterlife because science cant prove it. Don't believe in science so hard that you ignore other possibilities. A problem that a lot of people have is they like to use the knowledge that they "we" have atm to explain everything. it's like the cave men explaining complex weather patterns based on what they knew....AT THE TIME. Yes we do tend to think we know a lot about a lot, but on the grand scale we know less then 1% of what there is "to know". We like to have the answer's to everything now, asap, but we just don't. Yes that kinda sucks and is frustrating, but that's ok that we don't. there is nothing wrong with that. Crap just takes time, deal with it.


This is where the difference between Agnosticism and Atheism come into play. Agnostics are still open to the possibility that anything can be true, while atheists believe if it's not proven, it's not true.

My main issue with people who claim that God is or isn't real is that they have no way of knowing. They feel one way or the other, but stating something is a fact based off a feeling only contributes to general confusion.
The two choices we have are something starting from nothing, or something existing infinitely. These are both paradoxes. The existence of everything is therefore a paradox. -daemonfoe

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PostFri Apr 08, 2011 1:02 am » by Unitb166er


Atheists generally only accept things which can be proven by ......Science.

Science is a Process and therefore in a state of incompleteness and constant discovery.

The science of one hundred years ago thought it would be possible to send man to the moon in a steam locomotive.

The science of fifty years ago thought the universe was only the milky way galaxy.

I personally love science,But it has been known to be inaccurate and is still growing as a humanistic endeavor.It maybe that the science of fifty or a hundred years from now will make new discovery's that modify our concept of existence.After all, most cosmologists and physicists have come to the conclusion that fundamentally our existence in this universe is holographic and therefore under current atheistic terms unreal (because reality is not a mechanical interaction of matter or energy but interactions of conceptual values and information)!!!!

While religion has been around for well over two thousand years and has been the motivating and formative guidance for millions if not billions of human beings!Any investigation into morality and philosophy indicates that religion has been a parent to morality and thought about human nature. There no evidence to support the conclusion that morality could have evolved without a form of religion to act either as structural scaffolding or antagonistic motivation synthases.Religion and Science are the two main hemispheres of the Human Being.They give structure and meaning to our lives and aid as tools for the constant redefining of ourselves .These attacks against each World view only create the polarities of conflict,that in the end waste precious Time.

The precious Time of our Finite existence.

To all things there is reason.....even if we currently lack the Spiritual or Scientific Understanding to define it.

The Wise would leave the door wide open........and not shut it on those who may yet find that understanding even if we unwilling...immediately to accept what we do not know yet and Understand.

The Quantum Observer effect may be Faith on the grandest level!

:dunno:
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PostFri Apr 08, 2011 1:40 am » by Ademu


unitb166er wrote:Atheists generally only accept things which can be proven by ......Science.

Science is a Process and therefore in a state of incompleteness and constant discovery.

The science of one hundred years ago thought it would be possible to send man to the moon in a steam locomotive.

The science of fifty years ago thought the universe was only the milky way galaxy.

I personally love science,But it has been known to be inaccurate and is still growing as a humanistic endeavor.It maybe that the science of fifty or a hundred years from now will make new discovery's that modify our concept of existence.After all, most cosmologists and physicists have come to the conclusion that fundamentally our existence in this universe is holographic and therefore under current atheistic terms unreal (because reality is not a mechanical interaction of matter or energy but interactions of conceptual values and information)!!!!

While religion has been around for well over two thousand years and has been the motivating and formative guidance for millions if not billions of human beings!Any investigation into morality and philosophy indicates that religion has been a parent to morality and thought about human nature. There no evidence to support the conclusion that morality could have evolved without a form of religion to act either as structural scaffolding or antagonistic motivation synthases.Religion and Science are the two main hemispheres of the Human Being.They give structure and meaning to our lives and aid as tools for the constant redefining of ourselves .These attacks against each World view only create the polarities of conflict,that in the end waste precious Time.

The precious Time of our Finite existence.

To all things there is reason.....even if we currently lack the Spiritual or Scientific Understanding to define it.

The Wise would leave the door wide open........and not shut it on those who may yet find that understanding even if we unwilling...immediately to accept what we do not know yet and Understand.

The Quantum Observer effect may be Faith on the grandest level!

:dunno:


Excellent post :cheers:


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