An answer from believer is required, thank you

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PostMon Jan 31, 2011 10:52 pm » by Charashc


Very simple question.
What was religion of Moses?
If we are all to be ressurected at the end of the days and asked what we trusted in, what would Moses answer to God?
We must understand that the word Judaism came much later Moses, it's named Judaism by Judah, the son of Jacob a.k.a. Israel. And they are all descentents of Moses. So there was no such a word as Judaism when Moses was alive, and he would most probably use words he used while he was alive.
I wasn't meant to ask about Jesus, but since I'm here let me do it. What about Jesus?
What will Jesus say? Term "Christianism" was first mentioned in Book of Acts, written after Jesus died. Mostly fabricated book also, but that's another subject.
Now I totally forgot about the fact that Christianity consider Jesus to be whatever it consider him to be, so let me do it other way. What would Jesus say what is his religion?
I ask this 'cause both of them told this while they were alive.
Their religion was - total submission to one and only God.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
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PostMon Jan 31, 2011 11:31 pm » by Hayden


A believer in what mate?

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PostMon Jan 31, 2011 11:35 pm » by Charashc


hayden wrote:A believer in what mate?

A believer in nazi-reptilians ofc.
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PostMon Jan 31, 2011 11:46 pm » by Phaeton


charashc wrote:Very simple question.
What was religion of Moses?
If we are all to be ressurected at the end of the days and asked what we trusted in, what would Moses answer to God?
We must understand that the word Judaism came much later Moses, it's named Judaism by Judah, the son of Jacob a.k.a. Israel. And they are all descentents of Moses. So there was no such a word as Judaism when Moses was alive, and he would most probably use words he used while he was alive.
I wasn't meant to ask about Jesus, but since I'm here let me do it. What about Jesus?
What will Jesus say? Term "Christianism" was first mentioned in Book of Acts, written after Jesus died. Mostly fabricated book also, but that's another subject.
Now I totally forgot about the fact that Christianity consider Jesus to be whatever it consider him to be, so let me do it other way. What would Jesus say what is his religion?
I ask this 'cause both of them told this while they were alive.
Their religion was - total submission to one and only God.
Correct me if I'm wrong.


Twas fabricated, youre completely right. Islam also knows many infiltrations (imo).

"Few Christians are aware that the translators of Scripture often mistranslated the word "Jew" from such words as "Ioudaioi" (meaning from, or being of: as a geographic area, Judean). The word Judean, mistranslated as "Jew" in the New Testament, never possessed a valid religious connotation, but was simply used to identify members of the native population of the geographic area known as Judea.

Also it is important to understand that in the Scriptures, the terms "Israel", "Judah" and "Jew" are not synonymous, nor is the House of Israel synonymous with the House of Judah. The course of history is widely divergent for the peoples properly classified under each of these titles. Accordingly, the authoritative 1980 Jewish Almanac says, "Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a Jew or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew."

A writer for The Dearborn Independent, published in Michigan back in 1922, summarised the problem thus: "The pulpit has also the mission of liberating the Church from the error that Judah and Israel are synonymous. The reading of the Scriptures which confuse the tribe of Judah with Israel, and which interpret every mention of Israel as signifying the Jews, is at the root of more than one-half the confusion and division traceable in Christian doctrinal statements."

Jesus Christ and the Pharisees
The New Testament Gospels reveal an intense conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees, one of the two principal Judean religious sects (see Matthew chapter 3, verse 7; Matthew chapter 5, verse 20; Matthew chapter 23, verses 13-15, 23-29; Mark chapter 8, verse 15; Luke chapter 11, verse 39). Much of this controversy was centred on what was later to become the foundation and highest authority of Judaism, the Talmud. In the time of Jesus Christ, this bore the name of "The Tradition of the Elders" (see Matthew chapter 15, verses 1-9).

The Judean historian Josephus wrote: "What I would now explain is this, that the Pharisees have delivered to the people a great many observances by succession from their fathers, which are not written in the laws of Moses . . ."

While the Pharisees recognized the laws of Moses, they also claimed that there was a great body of oral tradition which was of at least equal authority with the written Law - and many claimed that the Tradition was of greater authority. By their tradition, they undertook to explain and elaborate upon the Law. This was the "Tradition of the Elders", to which the name of Talmud was later given. It had its beginning in Babylon, during the Babylon captivity of the people of Judah, where it developed in the form of the commentaries of various rabbis, undertaking to explain and apply the Law. This was the foundation of Rabbinic Judaism.

This Judaism was very different from the religion of the ancient Israelites. The late Rabbi Stephen S. Wise, who was the Chief Rabbi of the United States, expressed this conclusively when he said: "The return from Babylon, and the adoption of the Babylonian Talmud, marks the end of Hebrewism, and the beginning of Judaism." The Jewish Encyclopedia tells us that the Talmud is actually "the product of the Palestinian and Babylonian schools" and is generally referred to as "the Babylonian Talmud".

Dr. Boaz Cohen in Everyman's Talmud states the Talmud is the work of "numerous Jewish scholars over a period of some 700 years, roughly speaking, between 200 [B.C.] and 500 [A.D.]."

Rabbi Louis Finkelstein in Volume 1 of The Pharisees, the Sociological Background of their Faith says, "Pharisaism became Talmudism, Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism. But throughout these changes of name, inevitable adaption of custom, and adjustment of Law, the spirit of the ancient Pharisee survives unaltered."

According to The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. VIII, (1942) p.474 : "The Jewish religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees. Their leading ideas and methods found expression in a literature of enormous extent, of which a very great deal is still in existence. The Talmud is the largest and most important single member of that literature."

Moshe Menuhim explains that the Babylonian Talmud embodied all the laws and legends, all the history and 'science,' all the theology and folklore, of all the past ages in Jewish life -- a monumental work of consolidation. In the Talmud, Jewish scholarship and idealism found their exclusive outlet and preoccupation all through the ages, all the way up to the era of Enlightenment. It became the principal guide to life and object of study, and it gave Judaism unity, cohesion and resilience throughout the dark ages.

The Talmud, more than any other literature, so defined Judaism that Rabbi Ben Zion Bokser admitted, "Judaism is not the religion of the Bible." (Judaism and the Christian Predicament, 1966, p.159) It is the Talmud that guides the life and spirit of the Jewish people.

"The Talmud is to this day the circulating heart's blood of the Jewish religion. Whatever laws, customs, or ceremonies we [Jews] observe -- whether we are Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or merely spasmodic sentimentalists -- we follow the Talmud. It is our common law." (A History of the Jews, Solomon Grayzel).

Both Jewish and Christian scholars agree that it was Jesus Christ's flagrant rejection of this "Tradition of the Elders" and his open confrontation with the powerful Pharisees that created the climate that led to his death. Historically, Christian thinkers argued that the Talmud was directly responsible for the rejection of Christ.

In their view these "traditions" blinded the eyes of the people to a true understanding of the prophecies which related to the coming of the Messiah.

Defining Christianity
If, as we have seen, the Pharisees and the Talmud forever defined Judaism, then most certainly the writings of the post-Apostolic Christian church leaders help us in understanding the relationship of the early Christian faith to both paganism and Judaism.

Justin Martyr (c100-165 A.D.) was indeed the earliest and most significant of these post-Apostolic church apologists. Following in the theological footsteps of Paul, who taught that the Gospel was the fulfilment of Moses and the Prophets, Justin argued that the Gospel was in the mind of God from the beginning and it was given to Abraham and the righteous Patriarches long before Judaism existed. This is in keeping with the Gospel teaching that the Hebrew Scriptures find their 'flowering' in the life, purpose, and accomplishments of Jesus the Christ."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4803.htm
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PostMon Jan 31, 2011 11:54 pm » by Mochon


Lol u beat me to it

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PostMon Jan 31, 2011 11:57 pm » by Phaeton


Both Jewish and Christian scholars agree that it was Jesus Christ's flagrant rejection of this "Tradition of the Elders" and his open confrontation with the powerful Pharisees that created the climate that led to his death. Historically, Christian thinkers argued that the Talmud was directly responsible for the rejection of Christ.
"Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music"
"All our science measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - yet, in contemporary consensus, its the most precious thing we have"


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PostTue Feb 01, 2011 12:00 am » by Phaeton


Let me complete the piece here, thas more relevant content:

Christianity, seen through Justin Martyr's writings, takes on a 'cosmic' breadth:

"I both boast and strive with all my strength to be found a Christian...Whatever things were rightly said by any man, belong to us Christians. For next to God we worship and love the Word, who is from the unbegotten and ineffable God, since He also became man for our sakes, that by sharing in our sufferings He might also bring us healing. For all those writers were able to see reality darkly, through the seed of the implanted Word within them." (2 Apology).

Jesus Christ had come, argued Justin, to restore true religion and to denounce the hypocrisy of the religion of Judea. For that crime Jesus had been crucified. Consequently, Christianity is not a form of Judaism or simply Jewish prophecies fulfilled but 'the true philosophy'.

Justin's Christianity was eventually reducible to three major principles: (1) worship of God, mostly through private prayer and communication of being; (2) belief in an after-life with rewards and punishments for one's actions in this world; and (3) the importance of leading a virtuous life in imitation of Christ and in obedience to His commandments.

The Romans killed Justin for his religion. He was ever known as Justin Martyr, and not as St. Justin. His works defined Christianity as a culminating religion and a "universal" faith incorporating the essential and perennial truth of the pre-Christian religious tradition. Christianity was the restatement of a very old doctrine encompassing the Old Testament and the grand verities of the ancients. Two centuries later Augustine again clarified the Christian faith in these terms when he wrote:

"That which is now called the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist from the planting of the human race until Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion which already existed began to be called Christianity."

Justin not only showed that Christ is the culmination and completion of all the partial knowledge of truth in Greek philosophy, He is also the culmination of the history of ancient Israel. According to Justin Jesus Christ is Israel and because of Him the church now bears the name of Israel.

This is to say, therefore, that the central message of the Old Testament has been fulfilled in the New Testament. It must be understood that this was the position of Christendom for at least 1900 years. It was the position, not only of Justin Martyr, but of such Stalwart saints as Irenaeus and Hippolytus; a position embraced by Martin Luther and John Calvin, the two towering figures of the Protestant Reformation.

Here we have not only a clear separation of Christianity and Judaism, but a direct challenge to Judaism's core dogma of a Chosen Nation. A point which has not been lost by Jewish writers.

We read in Zionist author Uri Zimmer's Torah-Judaism and the State of Israel: "The Jewish people, Rabbi Judah Halevy (the famous medieval poet and philosopher) explains in his 'Kuzari', constitutes a separate entity, a species unique in Creation, differing from nations in the same manner as man differs from the beast or the beast from the plant...although Jews are physically similar to all other men, yet they are endowed with a 'second soul' that renders them a separate species."

Fraud
Traditionally Jewish scholars, as we have shown, were highly critical of the Judeo-Christian myth. There are many others, under the influence of modernism and secular Zionism, who do see some advantage in it.

Rabbi Martin Siegel, reflecting a Messianic zeal, was quoted in the 18 January 1972 edition of New York Magazine as declaring: "I am devoting my lecture in this seminar to a discussion of the possibility that we are now entering a Jewish century, a time when the spirit of the community, the non-ideological blend of the emotional and rational and the resistance to categories and forms will emerge through the forces of anti-nationalism to provide us with a new kind of society. I call this process the Judaization of Christianity because Christianity will be the vehicle through which this society becomes Jewish."

While historic Christianity has looked to the eventual triumph of the Kingdom of God throughout the earth, according to the Zionist leaders Talmudic Judaism is zealous in the "drive to perfect man's earthly habitat" (Gershon Mamlak, Midstream, Jan., 1989, p.31).

Dr. Mamlak admits that "many Jews have filled the ranks of the various revolutionary movements" (op. cit., p.32) in order to satisfy this urge. [But who can agree on the terms of the social contract? Were the Zionist Irgun and Stern gangs who terrorised and massacred the Palestinian Arabs in the campaign to establish the Israeli state, shining role models for young Jews? What about the immorality of "the end justifies the means"?]

Rabbi Michael Higger, renowned Talmudic scholar, in his book The Jewish Utopia, discusses the reshaping of the world into a Jewish Eden. The victory of this Utopia is inexorably tied to the coming of the Jewish Messiah.

"And the Messianic Age," argues the eloquent Jewish Zionist author Leon Simon, "means for the Jew not merely the establishment of peace on earth and good will to men, but the universal recognition of the Jew and his God. . . For Judaism has no message of salvation for the individual soul, as Christianity has; all its ideas are bound up with the existence of the Jewish nation." (Studies in Jewish Nationalism).

Driven by political agendas compromising Jews and compromising Christians began, only in this century, to disseminate the theretofore unheard of doctrine that Christianity originated from Judaism and that the two share a common worldview.

Dr. Gordon Ginn, an American Christian scholar, made a very valid point when he noted: "It is most interesting, indeed, that rabbis as well as Jewish scholars such as Mamlak and White agree with orthodox, historical Christianity that 'Judeo-Christian' is a contradiction in terms, even though that truth is yet to be discovered by contemporary evangelical and fundamentalist Christians" (Smyrna, August, 1993).

Christianity and Judaism are two distinct religious inheritances, despite all the superficial attempts by modern scholars to manufacture a naive "Judeo-Christianity." The very term "Judeo-Christian" is a mischievous misnomer without historical or Scriptural validity.

The religions of the world are the product of progressive revelation to a diverse humanity, separately expressing as they do the great metaphysical realities of life. Attempts to distort or eliminate these unique, ancient and divinely ordained patterns, through non-divine syncretism and politically-motivated concoctions, is both anti-traditional and truly diabolical.

Appeals to a nonexistent historical unity and calls for a banal, modernist theology do nothing for religious understanding and mutual respect. "Judeo-Christianity" should be seen for what it is - another secular twentieth century fraud, manufactured for narrow political ends, that is supremely disrespectful to all true believers.

Any fundamental unity that does exist between world religions cannot be appreciated by ignorant and secular scholarship, but only through knowledge of the great primordial and universal truths.

As Luc Benoist aptly wrote, "Our age is seeking a universal understanding which men of vision can already foresee and which is the longing of all great souls. There is ample evidence that the world's economic problems can be solved without the different religions having to abandon their unique spiritual insights; after all, brotherly agreement does not prevent the individual growth of each member of the family, bodily separate, but united in heart and mind." (The Esoteric Path).
"Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music"
"All our science measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - yet, in contemporary consensus, its the most precious thing we have"


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PostTue Feb 01, 2011 12:14 am » by evesmedusa


charashc wrote:Very simple question.
What was religion of Moses?

Firstly, not really a simple question and thus the answer is not simple either, but here is one view from Strabo:

"Strabo, a Greek historian, geographer and philosopher, in his Geography (c. AD 24), wrote in detail about Moses, whom he considered to be an Egyptian who deplored the situation in his homeland, and thereby attracted many followers who respected the deity. He writes, for example, that Moses opposed the picturing of the deity in the form of man or animal, and was convinced that the deity was an entity which encompassed everything – land and sea:

An Egyptian priest named Moses, who possessed a portion of the country called the Lower Egypt, being dissatisfied with the established institutions there, left it and came to Judaea with a large body of people who worshipped the Divinity. He declared and taught that the Egyptians and Africans entertained erroneous sentiments, in representing the Divinity under the likeness of wild beasts and cattle of the field; that the Greeks also were in error in making images of their gods after the human form. For God [said he] may be this one thing which encompasses us all, land and sea, which we call heaven, or the universe, or the nature of things. . . .

By such doctrine Moses persuaded a large body of right-minded persons to accompany him to the place where Jerusalem now stands. . . . ''

In Strabo’s writings of the history of Judaism as he understood it, he describes various stages in its development: from the first stage, including Moses and his direct heirs; to the final stage where "the Temple of Jerusalem continued to be surrounded by an aura of sanctity." Strabo’s "positive and unequivocal appreciation of Moses’ personality is among the most sympathetic in all ancient literature." His portrayal of Moses is said to be similar to the writing of Hecataeus who "described Moses as a man who excelled in wisdom and courage."

Egyptologist Jan Assmann concludes that Strabo was the historian "who came closest to a construction of Moses' religion as monotheism and as a pronounced counter-religion." It recognized "only one divine being whom no image can represent. . . [and] the only way to approach this god is to live in virtue and in justice."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses

If we are all to be ressurected at the end of the days and asked what we trusted in, what would Moses answer to God?

Moses would probably have answered "You", - (IMO)

We must understand that the word Judaism came much later Moses, it's named Judaism by Judah, the son of Jacob a.k.a. Israel. And they are all descentents of Moses. So there was no such a word as Judaism when Moses was alive, and he would most probably use words he used while he was alive.

If Strabo is correct in his writings, then Moses would have used Egyptian to express himself, and,of course, the language of his chosen people in whichever dialect was used at the time, local to them. They were called the 'children of Israel' but there are other names offered as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites

I wasn't meant to ask about Jesus, but since I'm here let me do it. What about Jesus?
What will Jesus say? Term "Christianism" was first mentioned in Book of Acts, written after Jesus died. Mostly fabricated book also, but that's another subject.
Now I totally forgot about the fact that Christianity consider Jesus to be whatever it consider him to be, so let me do it other way. What would Jesus say what is his religion?

I think phaeton has answered that, quite well.

I ask this 'cause both of them told this while they were alive.
Their religion was - total submission to one and only God.
Correct me if I'm wrong.


Both Moses and The Christ advocated 'one God' or Monotheism - regarding 'total submission' - you will need to consider 'free will' in that context.

Sorry, for the 'Wikipedia' use, but they were to hand, at the time of reply.

Eve.
The most courageous act is still to think for yourself, aloud.
Coco Chanel.

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PostTue Feb 01, 2011 12:27 am » by Mochon


evesmedusa wrote:
charashc wrote:Very simple question.
What was religion of Moses?

Firstly, not really a simple question and thus the answer is not simple either, but here is one view from Strabo:

"Strabo, a Greek historian, geographer and philosopher, in his Geography (c. AD 24), wrote in detail about Moses, whom he considered to be an Egyptian who deplored the situation in his homeland, and thereby attracted many followers who respected the deity. He writes, for example, that Moses opposed the picturing of the deity in the form of man or animal, and was convinced that the deity was an entity which encompassed everything – land and sea:

An Egyptian priest named Moses, who possessed a portion of the country called the Lower Egypt, being dissatisfied with the established institutions there, left it and came to Judaea with a large body of people who worshipped the Divinity. He declared and taught that the Egyptians and Africans entertained erroneous sentiments, in representing the Divinity under the likeness of wild beasts and cattle of the field; that the Greeks also were in error in making images of their gods after the human form. For God [said he] may be this one thing which encompasses us all, land and sea, which we call heaven, or the universe, or the nature of things. . . .

By such doctrine Moses persuaded a large body of right-minded persons to accompany him to the place where Jerusalem now stands. . . . ''

In Strabo’s writings of the history of Judaism as he understood it, he describes various stages in its development: from the first stage, including Moses and his direct heirs; to the final stage where "the Temple of Jerusalem continued to be surrounded by an aura of sanctity." Strabo’s "positive and unequivocal appreciation of Moses’ personality is among the most sympathetic in all ancient literature." His portrayal of Moses is said to be similar to the writing of Hecataeus who "described Moses as a man who excelled in wisdom and courage."

Egyptologist Jan Assmann concludes that Strabo was the historian "who came closest to a construction of Moses' religion as monotheism and as a pronounced counter-religion." It recognized "only one divine being whom no image can represent. . . [and] the only way to approach this god is to live in virtue and in justice."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses

If we are all to be ressurected at the end of the days and asked what we trusted in, what would Moses answer to God?

Moses would probably have answered "You", - (IMO)

We must understand that the word Judaism came much later Moses, it's named Judaism by Judah, the son of Jacob a.k.a. Israel. And they are all descentents of Moses. So there was no such a word as Judaism when Moses was alive, and he would most probably use words he used while he was alive.

If Strabo is correct in his writings, then Moses would have used Egyptian to express himself, and,of course, the language of his chosen people in whichever dialect was used at the time, local to them. They were called the 'children of Israel' but there are other names offered as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites

I wasn't meant to ask about Jesus, but since I'm here let me do it. What about Jesus?
What will Jesus say? Term "Christianism" was first mentioned in Book of Acts, written after Jesus died. Mostly fabricated book also, but that's another subject.
Now I totally forgot about the fact that Christianity consider Jesus to be whatever it consider him to be, so let me do it other way. What would Jesus say what is his religion?

I think phaeton has answered that, quite well.

I ask this 'cause both of them told this while they were alive.
Their religion was - total submission to one and only God.
Correct me if I'm wrong.


Both Moses and The Christ advocated 'one God' or Monotheism - regarding 'total submission' - you will need to consider 'free will' in that context.

Sorry, for the 'Wikipedia' use, but they were to hand, at the time of reply.

Eve.


Well there could be something abstract or maybe its so clear...but ur lines gave me a thought...


Both Moses and The Christ advocated 'one God' or Monotheism - regarding 'total submission' - you will need to consider 'free will' in that context.
what if we change submission for acceptance..then the free will gets a different meaning..in a way...

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PostTue Feb 01, 2011 2:30 am » by 99socks


Here comes the da'wah.
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