Bullsh*t: Rick Santorum on Netherlands and it's abortions

[Rydher Profile]

Yes, yes - you are right. Your Wikipedia, government provided data that says the REPORTED cases of euthanasia has gone down. Is much more believable than multiple studies done over 5 years with over 15 different sources. How silly of me. What a dumb ass that Rick Santorum is.

[Lawine Profile]

Yes. Of course. It's all a conspiracy. Didn't I say that's exactly what your counterargument would be?

Not a single pause given to think over the fact the report you cited does not claim any of these numbers, despite the fact you've been told this multiple times.

Not a single pause given to think over the fact it's over 20 years out of date.

Incidentally, the test committees I mentioned are not a government agency. They're independent organizations. The remmelink report you cited however, was in fact a government funded study. So, since we can't trust the government, we can't trust the report either, can we?

But just since you've been clinging on this report as 'proof', let's take a look at what the report itself actually says. This is a direct quote:

As part of its inquiries, the Remmelink Commission ordered the first empirical study of all medical decisions at the end of life. The study was led by Dr P. Van der Maas of the Erasmus University in Rotterdam. The study found that in 1990 in the Netherlands:

• there were 2 300 cases of active voluntary euthanasia, representing 1.8 per cent of all deaths.(143)
• there were 400 cases of physician-assisted suicide, representing 0.3 per cent of all deaths.(144)
• there were 22 500 cases where the patient had died after the administration of drugs to alleviate pain and symptoms in such dosages that the risk of shortening the patient's life was considerable. This represented 17.5 per cent of all deaths.

You may be taking the third item on this list as being somehow proof of your claims.

This is of course not the case as those cases do not involve euthanasia acts, but pain reduction attempts with a noted risk.

The report continues on to address these issues; noteably the high number of cases where patients were not properly made aware of the risks of the dosages they were receiving. The report highlighted a number of pretty serious shortcomings of the medical system as it existed 20 years ago. It does not however claim that 10% of all deaths in the netherlands in 1990 were the result of euthanasia, nor does it claim that 50% (or anywhere close that percentage) were cases of involuntary euthanasia.

[Lawine Profile]

And just to put something in perspective, another direct quote from the report you've latched on to:

The Dutch data on medical practices which shortens life, in the cases of non-competent or of competent but not-consulted patients, are indeed a matter of concern... [but there] really is not a shred of evidence that the frequency of this sort of behaviour is higher in the Netherlands than, for example, in the United States; the only thing that is clear is that more is known about it in the Netherlands. In short, there is no reason to assume ... a causal relationship between limited legalisation of euthanasia and 'lack of control' over other sorts of medical behaviour.(154)

[Rydher Profile]

Yes. Of course. It's all a conspiracy. Didn't I say that's exactly what your counterargument would be?

You are claiming it's a conspiracy, not I. It's all being done and spoken about in the open.

[It does not however claim that 10% of all deaths in the netherlands in 1990 were the result of euthanasia, nor does it claim that 50% (or anywhere close that percentage) were cases of involuntary euthanasia.

According to the Remmelink Report, in 1990:
- According to the Remmelink Report, Dutch physicians deliberately and intentionally ended the lives of 11,840 people by lethal overdoses or injections–a figure which accounts for 9.1% of the annual overall death rate of 130,000 per year. The majority of all euthanasia deaths in Holland are involuntary deaths.

- The Remmelink Report figures cited here do not include thousands of other cases, also reported in the study, in which life-sustaining treatment was withheld or withdrawn without the patient’s consent and with the intention of causing the patient’s death. Nor do the figures include cases of involuntary euthanasia performed on disabled newborns, children with life-threatening conditions, or psychiatric patients.

You may be taking the third item on this list as being somehow proof of your claims.

These aren't my claims, nor is this my argument. I'm willing to bet that this report is where Santorum got his information from. Even if it's not, what he said - according to this report - is true. Period, end of story.

[Gonzo63 Profile]

Next on the chopping block - Rick Santorum! Amazing how powerful the media actually is. Are you sure that it's all bullshit? Or are you just quick to jump on the bandwagon and condemn someone because the media says so?

Check out the link. Looks like there IS a problem. Keep in mind this report was done in 91. Has the right to human life and health care got better or worse since then? Would you believe that the United States performed forced sterilization on people? When it was happening, the answer is no. Now, it's documented and proven to be true.

Point being. Don't be so quick to be a tool of the media and condemn someone for saying something that YOU have no idea if it's true or not.

The Remmelink Report – On September 10, 1991, the results of the first, official government study of the practice of Dutch euthanasia were released. The two volume report –popularly referred to as the Remmelink Report (after Professor J. Remmelink, M.J., attorney general of the High Council of the Netherlands, who headed the study committee)–documents the prevalence ofinvoluntary euthanasia in Holland, as well as the fact that, to a large degree, doctors have taken over end-of-life decision making regarding euthanasia. The data indicate that, despite long-standing, court-approved euthanasia guidelines developed to protect patients, abuse has become an accepted norm. According to the Remmelink Report, in 1990:

2,300 people died as the result of doctors killing them upon request (active, voluntary euthanasia).

400 people died as a result of doctors providing them with the means to kill themselves (physician-assisted suicide).

1,040 people (an average of 3 per day) died from involuntary euthanasia, meaning that doctors actively killed these patients without the patients’ knowledge or consent.

14% of these patients were fully competent.

72% had never given any indication that they would want their lives terminated.

In 8% of the cases, doctors performed involuntary euthanasia despite the fact that they believed alternative options were still possible.

In addition, 8,100 patients died as a result of doctors deliberately giving them overdoses of pain medication, not for the primary purpose of controlling pain, but to hasten the patient’s death. In 61% of these cases (4,941 patients), the intentional overdose was given without the patient’s consent.

According to the Remmelink Report, Dutch physicians deliberately and intentionally ended the lives of 11,840 people by lethal overdoses or injections–a figure which accounts for 9.1% of the annual overall death rate of 130,000 per year. The majority of all euthanasia deaths in Holland are involuntary deaths.

The Remmelink Report figures cited here do not include thousands of other cases, also reported in the study, in which life-sustaining treatment was withheld or withdrawn without the patient’s consent and with the intention of causing the patient’s death. Nor do the figures include cases of involuntary euthanasia performed on disabled newborns, children with life-threatening conditions, or psychiatric patients.

The most frequently cited reasons given for ending the lives of patients without their knowledge or consent were: “low quality of life,” “no prospect for improvement,” and “the family couldn’t take it anymore.”(17)

In 45% of cases involving hospitalized patients who were involuntarily euthanized, the patients’ families had no knowledge that their loved ones’ lives were deliberately terminated by doctors.

According to the 1990 census, the population of Holland is approximately 15 million. That is only half the population of California. To get some idea of how the Remmelink Report statistics would apply to the U.S., those figures would have to be multiplied 16.6 times (based on the 1990 U.S. census population of approximately 250 million).

Falsified Death Certificates —In the overwhelming majority of Dutch euthanasia cases, doctors–in order to avoid additional paperwork and scrutiny from local authorities–deliberately falsify patients’ death certificates, stating that the deaths occurred from natural causes. (19) In reference to Dutch euthanasia guidelines and the requirement that physicians report all euthanasia and assisted-suicide deaths to local prosecutors, a government health inspector recently told the New York Times: “In the end the system depends on the integrity of the physician, of what and how he reports. If the family doctor does not report a case of voluntary euthanasia or an assisted suicide, there is nothing to control.” (20)

Source: http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/holland-background/

Rydher, your lengthy defense of the intolerant bigot Santorum is further proof that douchebags do indeed stick together.

[Lawine Profile]

According to the Remmelink Report, in 1990:
- According to the Remmelink Report, Dutch physicians deliberately and intentionally ended the lives of 11,840 people by lethal overdoses or injections–a figure which accounts for 9.1% of the annual overall death rate of 130,000 per year. The majority of all euthanasia deaths in Holland are involuntary deaths.

- The Remmelink Report figures cited here do not include thousands of other cases, also reported in the study, in which life-sustaining treatment was withheld or withdrawn without the patient’s consent and with the intention of causing the patient’s death. Nor do the figures include cases of involuntary euthanasia performed on disabled newborns, children with life-threatening conditions, or psychiatric patients.

This is a blatant lie. The actual report itself claims this only occurred in 1040 cases. This figure represents active intent to end the life. The report further claims 4941 administered lethal doses without the patient's consent, however it does not claim that death was the intended result here..

http://www.euthanasia.com/nethchart.gif <- the actual data in the report.

These aren't my claims, nor is this my argument. I'm willing to bet that this report is where Santorum got his information from. Even if it's not, what he said - according to this report - is true. Period, end of story.

Since I just cited the actual report, which gives differing figures that whatever synopsis you are reading, we can say that no, it is not actually true according to the report itself. We can also stated that it is not factually true since the report is 20 years out of date and is not in line with current facts.

The fact is that the claims made by both yourself and Santorum are demonstrably false, and have been shown to be false using the very report you yourself cited. This makes both you (and santorum) either A) A deceitful liar who purposefully twists the facts, or B) an idiot who doesn't know how to read his own sources.

Who would you rather have for a president? Someone who intentionally lies? Or someone dumb enough to not check the current facts (or the veracity of the 20 year old studies they think are still relevant) before making wild claims? I'm not sure which would be worse to have as a leader.

[Lawine Profile]

For further reading on your mistaken interpretations of the remmelink report, see:

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2000/04/07/686/

[Cornbread714 Profile]

Hmm, looks like someone has folded the debate tent and moved on to post another inane thread.

[Rydher Profile]

Yeah Corn, there are actually two reports that make up the Remmelink Report, it isn't that little pie chart. Both are pretty big and I can't actually find a copy of the actual report. Since I can't get my hands on the actual report, I can't for sure say the numbers on that page are right.

But given that all the other numbers cited on that page match up. I don't see why those wouldn't. At the end of the day - it doesn't matter. Like I said, the Remmelink Report is where he probably got the info from (which was a Dutch Government report btw). I don't think the guy lied or twisted any facts. Just said what the report said.

Either way. lawine

[Lawine Profile]

We already established he lied based on current factual reality.

That is all.