Bullsh*t: Rick Santorum on Netherlands and it's abortions
Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:58 pm » by Phaeton
For all those supporting this lying or highly ignorant tool; another bullsh*tter caught in the act...
Rick Santorum on The Netherlands and it's abortions
cheers
Rick Santorum on The Netherlands and it's abortions
Ok for the record, let's just check what he is saying:
There is a "do not euthanize" bracelet In the Netherlands, because half the people that are euthanized are euthanized involuntarily
False, no such bracelets exist, and every euthanasia case must start with a request from the patient. Neither the family nor the doctor can initiate the procedure, which has very clear rules:
•the patient's suffering is unbearable with no prospect of improvement
•the patient's request for euthanasia must be voluntary and persist over time (the request cannot be granted when under the influence of others, psychological illness or drugs)
•the patient must be fully aware of his/her condition, prospects and options
•there must be consultation with at least one other independent doctor who needs to confirm the conditions mentioned above
•the death must be carried out in a medically appropriate fashion by the doctor or patient, in which case the doctor must be present
•the patient is at least 12 years old (patients between 12 and 16 years of age require the consent of their parents)
More on the wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_the_Netherlands
10% of all deaths are from euthanasia
False. In 2010, 136058 people died in the Netherlands, of which 3136 through (reported) euthanasia. That is 2,3%. Of course not every case will be reported, but I assume most of them will, because when a doctor does not follow the guidelines that have been set in Dutch law for euthanasia (including reporting it to a review committee), it is still illegal, so that would be a huge risk to take for the doctor.
Elderly people in the Netherlands don't go the hospital, they go to another country, because they're afraid, because of budget purposes, that they will not come out of that hospital
While it is true that a growing number of people go to Belgian and German hospitals for non-urgent treatments, this is because of the shortage in healthcare professionals in the Netherlands, because of the population ageing, resulting in waiting lists in Dutch hospitals. This is still a fairly small amount, around 2% of operations on Dutch patients is done in foreign hospitals. But it certainly has nothing to do with 'budget purposes'. The Netherlands is in the top20 for both life expectancy and on the WHO ranking of healthcare systems, well above the US, which I assume would be harder if we were just killing old people left and right.
To summarize;
Santorum is wrong. It's actually much worse than that. I remember this one time my grandmother got so high on drugs at a government organised prostitution party she lost her ’Please don't euthanise me' bracelet. She was euthanised on the spot. Also, children under 12 are required to wear a 'Please don't abort me' bracelet. Only if they don't want to be aborted obviously.
I have to go now as I have to drive my GF to her weekly abortion..
cheers
"Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music"
"All our science measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - yet, in contemporary consensus, its the most precious thing we have"
"All our science measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - yet, in contemporary consensus, its the most precious thing we have"
Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:43 pm » by Rydher
Next on the chopping block - Rick Santorum! Amazing how powerful the media actually is. Are you sure that it's all bullshit? Or are you just quick to jump on the bandwagon and condemn someone because the media says so?
Check out the link. Looks like there IS a problem. Keep in mind this report was done in 91. Has the right to human life and health care got better or worse since then? Would you believe that the United States performed forced sterilization on people? When it was happening, the answer is no. Now, it's documented and proven to be true.
Point being. Don't be so quick to be a tool of the media and condemn someone for saying something that YOU have no idea if it's true or not.
The Remmelink Report – On September 10, 1991, the results of the first, official government study of the practice of Dutch euthanasia were released. The two volume report –popularly referred to as the Remmelink Report (after Professor J. Remmelink, M.J., attorney general of the High Council of the Netherlands, who headed the study committee)–documents the prevalence ofinvoluntary euthanasia in Holland, as well as the fact that, to a large degree, doctors have taken over end-of-life decision making regarding euthanasia. The data indicate that, despite long-standing, court-approved euthanasia guidelines developed to protect patients, abuse has become an accepted norm. According to the Remmelink Report, in 1990:
2,300 people died as the result of doctors killing them upon request (active, voluntary euthanasia).
400 people died as a result of doctors providing them with the means to kill themselves (physician-assisted suicide).
1,040 people (an average of 3 per day) died from involuntary euthanasia, meaning that doctors actively killed these patients without the patients’ knowledge or consent.
14% of these patients were fully competent.
72% had never given any indication that they would want their lives terminated.
In 8% of the cases, doctors performed involuntary euthanasia despite the fact that they believed alternative options were still possible.
In addition, 8,100 patients died as a result of doctors deliberately giving them overdoses of pain medication, not for the primary purpose of controlling pain, but to hasten the patient’s death. In 61% of these cases (4,941 patients), the intentional overdose was given without the patient’s consent.
According to the Remmelink Report, Dutch physicians deliberately and intentionally ended the lives of 11,840 people by lethal overdoses or injections–a figure which accounts for 9.1% of the annual overall death rate of 130,000 per year. The majority of all euthanasia deaths in Holland are involuntary deaths.
The Remmelink Report figures cited here do not include thousands of other cases, also reported in the study, in which life-sustaining treatment was withheld or withdrawn without the patient’s consent and with the intention of causing the patient’s death. Nor do the figures include cases of involuntary euthanasia performed on disabled newborns, children with life-threatening conditions, or psychiatric patients.
The most frequently cited reasons given for ending the lives of patients without their knowledge or consent were: “low quality of life,” “no prospect for improvement,” and “the family couldn’t take it anymore.”(17)
In 45% of cases involving hospitalized patients who were involuntarily euthanized, the patients’ families had no knowledge that their loved ones’ lives were deliberately terminated by doctors.
According to the 1990 census, the population of Holland is approximately 15 million. That is only half the population of California. To get some idea of how the Remmelink Report statistics would apply to the U.S., those figures would have to be multiplied 16.6 times (based on the 1990 U.S. census population of approximately 250 million).
Falsified Death Certificates —In the overwhelming majority of Dutch euthanasia cases, doctors–in order to avoid additional paperwork and scrutiny from local authorities–deliberately falsify patients’ death certificates, stating that the deaths occurred from natural causes. (19) In reference to Dutch euthanasia guidelines and the requirement that physicians report all euthanasia and assisted-suicide deaths to local prosecutors, a government health inspector recently told the New York Times: “In the end the system depends on the integrity of the physician, of what and how he reports. If the family doctor does not report a case of voluntary euthanasia or an assisted suicide, there is nothing to control.” (20)
Source: http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/holland-background/
Check out the link. Looks like there IS a problem. Keep in mind this report was done in 91. Has the right to human life and health care got better or worse since then? Would you believe that the United States performed forced sterilization on people? When it was happening, the answer is no. Now, it's documented and proven to be true.
Point being. Don't be so quick to be a tool of the media and condemn someone for saying something that YOU have no idea if it's true or not.
The Remmelink Report – On September 10, 1991, the results of the first, official government study of the practice of Dutch euthanasia were released. The two volume report –popularly referred to as the Remmelink Report (after Professor J. Remmelink, M.J., attorney general of the High Council of the Netherlands, who headed the study committee)–documents the prevalence ofinvoluntary euthanasia in Holland, as well as the fact that, to a large degree, doctors have taken over end-of-life decision making regarding euthanasia. The data indicate that, despite long-standing, court-approved euthanasia guidelines developed to protect patients, abuse has become an accepted norm. According to the Remmelink Report, in 1990:
2,300 people died as the result of doctors killing them upon request (active, voluntary euthanasia).
400 people died as a result of doctors providing them with the means to kill themselves (physician-assisted suicide).
1,040 people (an average of 3 per day) died from involuntary euthanasia, meaning that doctors actively killed these patients without the patients’ knowledge or consent.
14% of these patients were fully competent.
72% had never given any indication that they would want their lives terminated.
In 8% of the cases, doctors performed involuntary euthanasia despite the fact that they believed alternative options were still possible.
In addition, 8,100 patients died as a result of doctors deliberately giving them overdoses of pain medication, not for the primary purpose of controlling pain, but to hasten the patient’s death. In 61% of these cases (4,941 patients), the intentional overdose was given without the patient’s consent.
According to the Remmelink Report, Dutch physicians deliberately and intentionally ended the lives of 11,840 people by lethal overdoses or injections–a figure which accounts for 9.1% of the annual overall death rate of 130,000 per year. The majority of all euthanasia deaths in Holland are involuntary deaths.
The Remmelink Report figures cited here do not include thousands of other cases, also reported in the study, in which life-sustaining treatment was withheld or withdrawn without the patient’s consent and with the intention of causing the patient’s death. Nor do the figures include cases of involuntary euthanasia performed on disabled newborns, children with life-threatening conditions, or psychiatric patients.
The most frequently cited reasons given for ending the lives of patients without their knowledge or consent were: “low quality of life,” “no prospect for improvement,” and “the family couldn’t take it anymore.”(17)
In 45% of cases involving hospitalized patients who were involuntarily euthanized, the patients’ families had no knowledge that their loved ones’ lives were deliberately terminated by doctors.
According to the 1990 census, the population of Holland is approximately 15 million. That is only half the population of California. To get some idea of how the Remmelink Report statistics would apply to the U.S., those figures would have to be multiplied 16.6 times (based on the 1990 U.S. census population of approximately 250 million).
Falsified Death Certificates —In the overwhelming majority of Dutch euthanasia cases, doctors–in order to avoid additional paperwork and scrutiny from local authorities–deliberately falsify patients’ death certificates, stating that the deaths occurred from natural causes. (19) In reference to Dutch euthanasia guidelines and the requirement that physicians report all euthanasia and assisted-suicide deaths to local prosecutors, a government health inspector recently told the New York Times: “In the end the system depends on the integrity of the physician, of what and how he reports. If the family doctor does not report a case of voluntary euthanasia or an assisted suicide, there is nothing to control.” (20)
Source: http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/holland-background/
Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:39 pm » by Lawine
That report is completely irrelevant since it was a study done *before euthanasia was even legal*. The law was unclear on the process back then and undoubtedly mistakes were made (though I question your interpretation of the report).
In 2002, euthanasia became fully legal and a strict procedure introduced. The problems outlined in the report you referenced can now no longer occur, though they most assuredly do elsewhere (including the US) where euthanasia is not properly legislated.
In 2002, euthanasia became fully legal and a strict procedure introduced. The problems outlined in the report you referenced can now no longer occur, though they most assuredly do elsewhere (including the US) where euthanasia is not properly legislated.
Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:50 pm » by Phaeton
rydher wrote:Next on the chopping block - Rick Santorum! Amazing how powerful the media actually is. Are you sure that it's all bullshit? Or are you just quick to jump on the bandwagon and condemn someone because the media says so?
Check out the link. Looks like there IS a problem. Keep in mind this report was done in 91. Has the right to human life and health care got better or worse since then? Would you believe that the United States performed forced sterilization on people? When it was happening, the answer is no. Now, it's documented and proven to be true.
Point being. Don't be so quick to be a tool of the media and condemn someone for saying something that YOU have no idea if it's true or not.
The Remmelink Report – On September 10, 1991, the results of the first, official government study of the practice of Dutch euthanasia were released. The two volume report –popularly referred to as the Remmelink Report (after Professor J. Remmelink, M.J., attorney general of the High Council of the Netherlands, who headed the study committee)–documents the prevalence ofinvoluntary euthanasia in Holland, as well as the fact that, to a large degree, doctors have taken over end-of-life decision making regarding euthanasia. The data indicate that, despite long-standing, court-approved euthanasia guidelines developed to protect patients, abuse has become an accepted norm. According to the Remmelink Report, in 1990:
2,300 people died as the result of doctors killing them upon request (active, voluntary euthanasia).
400 people died as a result of doctors providing them with the means to kill themselves (physician-assisted suicide).
1,040 people (an average of 3 per day) died from involuntary euthanasia, meaning that doctors actively killed these patients without the patients’ knowledge or consent.
14% of these patients were fully competent.
72% had never given any indication that they would want their lives terminated.
In 8% of the cases, doctors performed involuntary euthanasia despite the fact that they believed alternative options were still possible.
In addition, 8,100 patients died as a result of doctors deliberately giving them overdoses of pain medication, not for the primary purpose of controlling pain, but to hasten the patient’s death. In 61% of these cases (4,941 patients), the intentional overdose was given without the patient’s consent.
According to the Remmelink Report, Dutch physicians deliberately and intentionally ended the lives of 11,840 people by lethal overdoses or injections–a figure which accounts for 9.1% of the annual overall death rate of 130,000 per year. The majority of all euthanasia deaths in Holland are involuntary deaths.
The Remmelink Report figures cited here do not include thousands of other cases, also reported in the study, in which life-sustaining treatment was withheld or withdrawn without the patient’s consent and with the intention of causing the patient’s death. Nor do the figures include cases of involuntary euthanasia performed on disabled newborns, children with life-threatening conditions, or psychiatric patients.
The most frequently cited reasons given for ending the lives of patients without their knowledge or consent were: “low quality of life,” “no prospect for improvement,” and “the family couldn’t take it anymore.”(17)
In 45% of cases involving hospitalized patients who were involuntarily euthanized, the patients’ families had no knowledge that their loved ones’ lives were deliberately terminated by doctors.
According to the 1990 census, the population of Holland is approximately 15 million. That is only half the population of California. To get some idea of how the Remmelink Report statistics would apply to the U.S., those figures would have to be multiplied 16.6 times (based on the 1990 U.S. census population of approximately 250 million).
Falsified Death Certificates —In the overwhelming majority of Dutch euthanasia cases, doctors–in order to avoid additional paperwork and scrutiny from local authorities–deliberately falsify patients’ death certificates, stating that the deaths occurred from natural causes. (19) In reference to Dutch euthanasia guidelines and the requirement that physicians report all euthanasia and assisted-suicide deaths to local prosecutors, a government health inspector recently told the New York Times: “In the end the system depends on the integrity of the physician, of what and how he reports. If the family doctor does not report a case of voluntary euthanasia or an assisted suicide, there is nothing to control.” (20)
Source: http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/holland-background/
Read the OP again, Rydher.. I can think of no other possibility than you not reading what the OP actually states for you to react with this content.. which says nothing about what is put forward in the first post.
No ones on the 'chopping block'.. Someone is being corrected on the faulty information he states as being fact [aka lying]. You seem quite defensive, any reason for that?
'Supporting' Santorum, are you? Listen, Im Dutch.. Elderly people do not need to wear 'please dont euthanize me' bracelets, and half the people who get euthanized are not being forced. 10% o/t deaths are not from euthanasia.. And elderly people do not go to a foreign hospital because theyre affraid they wont make it out alive in a Dutch one.
Point being. Don't be so quick to be a tool of the media and condemn someone for saying something that YOU have no idea if it's true or not.
Wait wait.. Youre telling me, you - 'a foreigner', and me - a Dutchman, I dont know what Im talking about? When the subject is "old people wearing 'dont euthanize me bracelets' to keep them getting euthanized involuntarily [in the Netherlands]"..
Thats rich dude... even coming from you. Thanks for a good laugh though
"Dont be a tool for the media"
"Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music"
"All our science measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - yet, in contemporary consensus, its the most precious thing we have"
"All our science measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - yet, in contemporary consensus, its the most precious thing we have"
Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:32 pm » by Rydher
Santorum next on the chopping block? Simply put - YES. It doesn't take much to see that whoever dare seriously challenges Romney (the establishments pick) gets hit piece after hit piece put out against him. Ask yourself, when is the last time you heard a negative story in the media about Santorum? I can tell you - it was after he won Iowa. You are helping that along with posting stuff like this without having a clue what you're talking about.
Yeah, I said it. You're Dutch and don't have a clue what you're talking about. I live in Florida, specifically in Sarasota County AND I live down the road from a hospital. If a story came out about how Sarasota County hospitals are putting wristbands on people saying if they have insurance or not, to determine their level of healthcare. Does that mean I know if it's true or not? Hell no, I don't know everything that goes on someplace just because I'm from there.
Back to the point. I notice you didn't touch EVERYTHING else you said he was lying about. You only touched on the bracelets. I will admit, I couldn't find anything about that. Because if you search the internet, you get page after page of this exact story. to actually find any facts to refute or support his statements are hard to find. Which should be warning flag number one.
Warning flag two. The clip shown starts at him in mid word at the end of another sentence. I would love to see the whole clip.
Now, I would love to hear where he got this information from about the bracelets. I find it strange that someone in his position would just willy nilly pull something like that out of his ass for no reason.
As for being defensive, not at all. I've been the same way since day one on any subject. As for supporting Santorum, I suppose. I'm for Ron Paul but if he doesn't get the nomination then Santorum would be my second choice.
Just to recap:
There is a "do not euthanize" bracelet In the Netherlands, because half the people that are euthanized are euthanized involuntarily
- Bracelet: So far I can't find that to be true. There is this however:
In 1990, the Dutch Patients’ Association, a disability rights organization, developed wallet-size cards which state that if the signer is admitted to a hospital “no treatment be administered with the intention to terminate life.” Many in Holland see the card as a necessity to help prevent involuntary euthanasia being performed on those who do not want their lives ended, especially those whose lives are considered low in quality.
- The 50% are euthanized involuntarily appears to be true.
10% of all deaths are from euthanasia
- Appears to be true.
Elderly people in the Netherlands don't go the hospital, they go to another country, because they're afraid, because of budget purposes, that they will not come out of that hospital
- I think this is where he got the information.
In 1993, the Dutch senior citizens’ group, the Protestant Christian Elderly Society, surveyed 2,066 seniors on general health care issues. The Survey did not address the euthanasia issue in any way, yet ten percent of the elderly respondents clearly indicated that, because of the Dutch euthanasia policy, they are afraid that their lives could be terminated without their request. According to the Elderly Society director, Hans Homans. “They are afraid that at a certain moment, on the basis of age, a treatment will be considered no longer economically viable, and an early end to their lives will be made.”
Yeah, I said it. You're Dutch and don't have a clue what you're talking about. I live in Florida, specifically in Sarasota County AND I live down the road from a hospital. If a story came out about how Sarasota County hospitals are putting wristbands on people saying if they have insurance or not, to determine their level of healthcare. Does that mean I know if it's true or not? Hell no, I don't know everything that goes on someplace just because I'm from there.
Back to the point. I notice you didn't touch EVERYTHING else you said he was lying about. You only touched on the bracelets. I will admit, I couldn't find anything about that. Because if you search the internet, you get page after page of this exact story. to actually find any facts to refute or support his statements are hard to find. Which should be warning flag number one.
Warning flag two. The clip shown starts at him in mid word at the end of another sentence. I would love to see the whole clip.
Now, I would love to hear where he got this information from about the bracelets. I find it strange that someone in his position would just willy nilly pull something like that out of his ass for no reason.
As for being defensive, not at all. I've been the same way since day one on any subject. As for supporting Santorum, I suppose. I'm for Ron Paul but if he doesn't get the nomination then Santorum would be my second choice.
Just to recap:
There is a "do not euthanize" bracelet In the Netherlands, because half the people that are euthanized are euthanized involuntarily
- Bracelet: So far I can't find that to be true. There is this however:
In 1990, the Dutch Patients’ Association, a disability rights organization, developed wallet-size cards which state that if the signer is admitted to a hospital “no treatment be administered with the intention to terminate life.” Many in Holland see the card as a necessity to help prevent involuntary euthanasia being performed on those who do not want their lives ended, especially those whose lives are considered low in quality.
- The 50% are euthanized involuntarily appears to be true.
10% of all deaths are from euthanasia
- Appears to be true.
Elderly people in the Netherlands don't go the hospital, they go to another country, because they're afraid, because of budget purposes, that they will not come out of that hospital
- I think this is where he got the information.
In 1993, the Dutch senior citizens’ group, the Protestant Christian Elderly Society, surveyed 2,066 seniors on general health care issues. The Survey did not address the euthanasia issue in any way, yet ten percent of the elderly respondents clearly indicated that, because of the Dutch euthanasia policy, they are afraid that their lives could be terminated without their request. According to the Elderly Society director, Hans Homans. “They are afraid that at a certain moment, on the basis of age, a treatment will be considered no longer economically viable, and an early end to their lives will be made.”
Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:46 pm » by Phaeton
rydher wrote:Santorum next on the chopping block? Simply put - YES. It doesn't take much to see that whoever dare seriously challenges Romney (the establishments pick) gets hit piece after hit piece put out against him. Ask yourself, when is the last time you heard a negative story in the media about Santorum? I can tell you - it was after he won Iowa. You are helping that along with posting stuff like this without having a clue what you're talking about.
Yeah, I said it. You're Dutch and don't have a clue what you're talking about. I live in Florida, specifically in Sarasota County AND I live down the road from a hospital. If a story came out about how Sarasota County hospitals are putting wristbands on people saying if they have insurance or not, to determine their level of healthcare. Does that mean I know if it's true or not? Hell no, I don't know everything that goes on someplace just because I'm from there.
Back to the point. I notice you didn't touch EVERYTHING else you said he was lying about. You only touched on the bracelets. I will admit, I couldn't find anything about that. Because if you search the internet, you get page after page of this exact story. to actually find any facts to refute or support his statements are hard to find. Which should be warning flag number one.
Warning flag two. The clip shown starts at him in mid word at the end of another sentence. I would love to see the whole clip.
Now, I would love to hear where he got this information from about the bracelets. I find it strange that someone in his position would just willy nilly pull something like that out of his ass for no reason.
As for being defensive, not at all. I've been the same way since day one on any subject. As for supporting Santorum, I suppose. I'm for Ron Paul but if he doesn't get the nomination then Santorum would be my second choice.
Just to recap:
There is a "do not euthanize" bracelet In the Netherlands, because half the people that are euthanized are euthanized involuntarily
- Bracelet: So far I can't find that to be true. There is this however:
In 1990, the Dutch Patients’ Association, a disability rights organization, developed wallet-size cards which state that if the signer is admitted to a hospital “no treatment be administered with the intention to terminate life.” Many in Holland see the card as a necessity to help prevent involuntary euthanasia being performed on those who do not want their lives ended, especially those whose lives are considered low in quality.
- The 50% are euthanized involuntarily appears to be true.
10% of all deaths are from euthanasia
- Appears to be true.
Elderly people in the Netherlands don't go the hospital, they go to another country, because they're afraid, because of budget purposes, that they will not come out of that hospital
- I think this is where he got the information.
In 1993, the Dutch senior citizens’ group, the Protestant Christian Elderly Society, surveyed 2,066 seniors on general health care issues. The Survey did not address the euthanasia issue in any way, yet ten percent of the elderly respondents clearly indicated that, because of the Dutch euthanasia policy, they are afraid that their lives could be terminated without their request. According to the Elderly Society director, Hans Homans. “They are afraid that at a certain moment, on the basis of age, a treatment will be considered no longer economically viable, and an early end to their lives will be made.”
O Good Lord..
"Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music"
"All our science measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - yet, in contemporary consensus, its the most precious thing we have"
"All our science measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - yet, in contemporary consensus, its the most precious thing we have"
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