Gospel of John, chapter 16, verse 12-14

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PostTue Jul 12, 2011 6:53 pm » by Fayaz


spock wrote:So Phaeton, eating pork, not being circumcised and drinking alcohol are things you consider separate people from the grace of God?

That is the legalism Jesus came in the hopes of doing away with.


Alright, I wanted to ask some questions to u
1. ARE U CIRCUMCISED??
2. DO U DRINK ALCOHOL??
3. DO U EAT PORK??

Could you please answer the above questions please??? :cheers:

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PostTue Jul 12, 2011 6:58 pm » by Fayaz


nelusmc wrote:Fayaz

No matter what anyone writes on this thread your gonna believe your beliefs so there is no point to even explain anything really, because your stuck with your understanding till he reveals to you directly. My advice if you want answers pray to the father that he reveals to you what the truth is. Don't go by scholars but by your own personal relationship with the lord, other than that you're always gonna have many questions. As far me he's already answered my questions hope he does it for you aswell take care.


I respect your view, though u might differ from my view. But my question to you is DO U BELIEVE IN CHRISTIANITY???
Whatever is ur answer i do respect it.

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PostTue Jul 12, 2011 7:05 pm » by Spock


fayaz wrote:
Alright, I wanted to ask some questions to u
1. ARE U CIRCUMCISED?? - Shouldn't you at least take me out to dinner first?
2. DO U DRINK ALCOHOL?? - Not anymore
3. DO U EAT PORK?? - mmmmmmmmmm pork <--- insert Homer Simpson drooling. As often as my diet permits

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PostTue Jul 12, 2011 7:22 pm » by Phaeton


spock wrote:So Phaeton, eating pork, not being circumcised and drinking alcohol are things you consider separate people from the grace of God?

That is the legalism Jesus came in the hopes of doing away with.


As I understand him, he is pointing out the delta between the literal teachings of Yeshua with the present day version of 'Christianity'. The last being mainly fomented by the Roman Catholic Church [which can be held up debate- wise as the direct antithesis to the actual teachings of Yeshua]. I agree with this. And even if I did not; I sure as hell wouldnt decree my opponent to be 'uneducated' especially in this context.

The schism created by Paulinistic [Saulus de Tarsus] offshoots have diverted and twisted the original Nazarean school of thought / teachings. Just like the 'United Grand Loge' has replaced the Jacobin Masonic Scottish Rite Supreme Council from 1717 on [GB]; the real replaced by the fake. The fake has become the real, and the real has become the fake. This statement is on me and me alone. I shall not call you 'uneducated' when you disagree, for I know I know nothing at all. I just think..

Again; the point is - we all do not 'know'. We can discuss the different views and pieces of information. But to proceed to call others 'uneducated' and imply you do 'know' yourself.. well.. I think thats rather arrogant, premature and generally unwise.
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PostTue Jul 12, 2011 7:32 pm » by Spock


phaeton wrote:Again; the point is - we all do not 'know'. We can discuss the different views and pieces of information. But to proceed to call others 'uneducated' and imply you do 'know' yourself.. well.. I think thats rather arrogant, premature and generally unwise.



I have to disagree. Call it arrogance all you wish, but a Mulsim wrongly interpreting what it is to be "a better Christian" than others and using these as examples is Uneducated. In any of books of the Bible, what happened when someone boasted of their perceived position with God or being over others by their deeds?

Likewise - go back and read Jesus' rant to the temple priests for such action.

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PostTue Jul 12, 2011 7:33 pm » by Fayaz


Alright, I wanted to ask some questions to u
1. ARE U CIRCUMCISED?? - Shouldn't you at least take me out to dinner first?
2. DO U DRINK ALCOHOL?? - Not anymore
3. DO U EAT PORK?? - mmmmmmmmmm pork <--- insert Homer Simpson drooling. As often as my diet permits[/quote][/quote]

So u are not circumcised, u have had alcohol ( u said not anymore and i pray to God u should not have it anymore) and u eat pork.
So i am asking which part of the bible are u following??? Only by saying u are a Christian u will not become a christian. U have to follow it as well. I know u have an easy way for salvation. U do not follow most of the teachings of Jesus pbuh, but u will believe that Jesus pbuh died on the cross for u r sins and u r escaped from hell fire... I am asking u a question again. Did Jesus pbuh say that believe i died on the cross and u will attain salvation????

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PostTue Jul 12, 2011 7:50 pm » by Phaeton


spock wrote:
phaeton wrote:Again; the point is - we all do not 'know'. We can discuss the different views and pieces of information. But to proceed to call others 'uneducated' and imply you do 'know' yourself.. well.. I think thats rather arrogant, premature and generally unwise.



I have to disagree. Call it arrogance all you wish, but a Mulsim wrongly interpreting what it is to be "a better Christian" than others and using these as examples is Uneducated. In any of books of the Bible, what happened when someone boasted of their perceived position with God or being over others by their deeds?

Likewise - go back and read Jesus' rant to the temple priests for such action.


Am I to understand here mr. Spock, that he is to be called uneducated becuase he is using the wrong examples? His premiss is highly relevant, but the examples he employs makes him uneducated.. And you find yourself in the position to decide this.

Be my guest, but this is what we call arrogance where I come from sir. Highly misplaced arrogance at that.
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PostTue Jul 12, 2011 8:59 pm » by Spock


fayaz wrote:Alright, I wanted to ask some questions to u
1. ARE U CIRCUMCISED?? - Shouldn't you at least take me out to dinner first?
2. DO U DRINK ALCOHOL?? - Not anymore
3. DO U EAT PORK?? - mmmmmmmmmm pork <--- insert Homer Simpson drooling. As often as my diet permits

So u are not circumcised, u have had alcohol ( u said not anymore and i pray to God u should not have it anymore) and u eat pork.
So i am asking which part of the bible are u following??? Only by saying u are a Christian u will not become a christian. U have to follow it as well. I know u have an easy way for salvation. U do not follow most of the teachings of Jesus pbuh, but u will believe that Jesus pbuh died on the cross for u r sins and u r escaped from hell fire... I am asking u a question again. Did Jesus pbuh say that believe i died on the cross and u will attain salvation????



I'll try to answer everything as quick answers won't do any of your questions justice.

First you asked about circumcision, pork and alcohol and asked what part of the Bible I followed. To answer this question concerning salvation I would say they are irrelevant, however there are implications to anything we do. For instance, I decided to stop drinking because I felt it was robbing me of a healthy relationship, not only with my family but also with God as well as my health suffered. I put too much time into having "a good time" and by doing so it took a toll on what I truly consider important in life. Pork is a delicious and healthy meat if prepared properly. It will do nobody any good to eat ribs every week as their LDL (bad cholesterol) would shoot sky high, but lean pork loin is an excellent source of protein and typically has less sodium than even chicken. And circumcision - too, is irrelevant.

These same arguments came up just years after Jesus' death and resurrection, and there were times when the Apostle Paul and the Disciple Peter debated on some of the issues. Peter tended to want to keep the new covenant to the Jews, but Paul knew that it was for all people. So in 1 Corinthians 6:12 when talking about issues such as these Paul says...
Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial.


As far as eating pork, the disciple Peter has a vision, which is talked about in the Book of Acts 10:11-14 which seem to illustrate a couple of ideas. One, that all animals are okay to eat. Peter had a hard time with this because he had always kept "the laws" that Jesus had fulfilled. Peter also interpreted this as it was okay for this new testimony to be taken to the gentiles and not kept for the Jews only.

Paul also adresses this when talking about meat that had been sacrificed to idols. He said it was not a big deal. The idols were fake and the meat was okay for consumption. In other words, these things are nothing but stumbling blocks to what is really important and the real message. Jesus likened it to willingly swallowing a camel while hypocritically sticking a finger down your throat to vomit up a gnat (because the gnat was unclean).

Salvation is easy yes. The path to spiritual growth is hard. Because once you accept Jesus, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell and minister to you and stays on your conscience to do better. Yes, we fail constantly, and even our best works are as "filthy rags" to a Holy God, but in God's great love for us, he fulfilled the Laws of Moses so that whoever believed could have eternal life.

This is demonstrated at the cross of Calvary too. Many denominations in the Christian faith, equally argue about the importance of Baptism, and some say it is required. Again, irrelevant. The legalism creates more discorse. I think being Baptized is great, and it is an outward showing of your inward decision to follow Christ. But not a requirement. When the 2 robbers were hanging on the cross next to Jesus, and the one asked Jesus, "Lord, will you remember me when you come into your Kingdom?" Jesus, did not say to the robber - sorry Jack, but you got to figure out a way to get off this cross and baptized first. No, Jesus said to him, "Today you will walk with me in paradise".

Yes, I believe I have escaped "hellfire" and I also believe the way to live in the presence of God is available to anyone that simply accepts His gift. That includes Muslims. Regardless of misunderstandings or misinterpretations. God's grace is sufficient for our lacking of knowledge. I also believe God will be much more forgiving than we people give him credit for. Maybe because we all find it so hard ourselves to forgive. The prerequisite to salvation is accepting the gift of Salvation through the work of Jesus Christ. Everything else is semantics. Or, again, as Paul said, “Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial". And, there is only 1 unpardonable sin. And that is the sin against the Holy Spirit. As we read what Jesus said in Matthew 12:22-32
"Then there was brought to Him a demon-possessed man who was blind and dumb, and He healed him, so that the dumb man spoke and saw. 23And all the multitudes were amazed, and began to say, "This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?" 24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "This man casts out demons only by Beelzebub the ruler of the demons." 25And knowing their thoughts He said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself shall not stand. 26"And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? 27"And if I by Beelzebub cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? Consequently they shall be your judges. 28"But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29"Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. 31"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32"And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come


The sin against the Holy Spirit is the rejection of the Spirit. This is unforgivable because it strikes at the heart of the redemptive work of God in Christ. It strikes at the very nature of Jesus' ministry of redemption, testimony and teaching. Jesus was ministering in the power of the Holy Spirit Himself, fulfilling the divine plan of God to provide a sacrifice for our sins. In other words, the sin against the "Holy Spirit" is the rejection of Christ as Savior.

I think this is the last question:
Did Jesus pbuh say that believe i died on the cross and u will attain salvation????


I'm not sure if you are asking me to show you where Jesus claimed this, to be the messiah or not, but that is what I gather from it, so here goes.

Here are some claims Jesus made either stating Himself or agreeing to them after others had stated them.

Jesus on being the Messiah:
John 4:16-26

16 He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”

17 “I have no husband,” she replied.

Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”


Jesus sent from God
John 8:21-30

21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
22 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”

23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

25 “Who are you?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”

27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.


Jesus claims being eternal
John 8:52-59[/b]
52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.



Jesus claims to be equal to God
John 10:24-39

24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.



[b]Jesus claims to be the only way to God
John 14:1-6
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


Jesus is the complete Revelation of God
John 14:7-9

7 If you really know me, you will know[a] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


Jesus on his mission to die for our sins
Matthew 26:26-32

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[a] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

30 When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial
31 Then Jesus told them, “This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written:
“‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’[b]

32 But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.”


There's more, but you get the idea.

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PostTue Jul 12, 2011 9:01 pm » by Spock


phaeton wrote:Am I to understand here mr. Spock, that he is to be called uneducated becuase he is using the wrong examples? His premiss is highly relevant, but the examples he employs makes him uneducated.. And you find yourself in the position to decide this.


You're just a sad, angry person aren't you?

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PostTue Jul 12, 2011 9:08 pm » by Zer0


Can we all just agree that anyone who eats Pork, is going to burn in hell for all eternity? It is written in the law.
Master Raphael wrote:what you call the law of attraction was missing a vital aspect to the theory that I call the law of repulsion ...it is clear I drove the two of you together...using my repulsion not attraction


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