Is money a lie?

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PostWed Apr 22, 2009 1:00 am » by Lowsix

nuada wrote:
LowSix wrote:Wealth is not created by the creation of widgets.
Pocket money is generated by widgets.

Betting on the prices of currencies, and commodities,
and financial vehicles is what creates the wealth that drives this world.
And really needs VERY little input from us humans.

Those are the fruits, not the people..

Where, therefore, do the people stand in your philosophy?
Are they like the Russians you spoke of earlier?
Or the Jewish victims?
Or the Cambodian masses?

I'm struggling to find your true agenda here. Mine is clearly on the table.

Dude..climb down. Seriously.

And yeah, without defendable constitutions, personal arms, and an active democracy ALL people have the possibility of becoming like the Russians, Jews and cambodians.. Stalin disarmed the people RIGHT before his purges and Ukranian starvation campaign.

And without countries with the moral fortitude to intervene on behalf of the weak, and withstand criticism for doing so... unarmed, undefended masses, atrocities like that would continue..unabated..(even though i know thats how you prefer the world to be)

wtf is your point?

Youve made it clear how you feel about 'the people" god help them if they arent born in OUR country. If they ARE like the russians, jews or cambodians..fuck em..not our problem. (those are your words btw, before you start arguin)

People wouldnt matter at all under your 'hands off' model.
In MY model..each human is valuable...
In the model of most world governments, they need a certain number of people to continue production, but the rest are surplus.

Thats how the slippery slope down into ethnic cleansing starts, and its pacifists like you, who assert that its immoral to assert or moral values upon those atrocious systems..

You are dead wrong...across the board.
warløckmitbladderinfection wrote:blasphemous new gehenna inhabitant makes god sad...

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PostWed Apr 22, 2009 1:24 am » by Lowsix

killtylerdurden wrote:No, money isn't a lie. It is and always has been simply imaginary. I'd explain further, however many around here display an often illusory distrust of the government and trying to convey the basis of a fiat system would be fruitless, if feasible...
LowSix wrote:When the economy unhinged itself from the gold standard, it became a lie.

And the markets have ALWAYS been a lie..98% of all market transactions, never involve delivery of anything. They simply involve betting on the price fluctuations of commodities between a given set of dates, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Supply/Demand or anything that ties assets to purchase value.

We could not have the world wealth we have if it were tied to asset value, because there could be no speculation to drive pices. The supply demand curve is not steep enough to create global wealth.

So yes, its all a lie.

No money was actually lost in the financial crisis..
it was simply declared with a new value.

Okay, you don't even know the difference between commodities and securities, what else makes you an expert on "the markets"?

And you also claim that when one buys stock, nothing happens. Seriously? Where does the money go? and what's with all this stock appearing in my account? Further, what happens when I shell out the cash to hold certificates? What are these documents that are being mailed to me? Nothing of consequence, you assert. Beyond that, some securities are traded hundreds of times a second, which implies that there are hundreds of both buyers and sellers lined up with their asks, bids, and triggers all lined up. Billions of dollars being exchanged for billions of securities on a daily basis. If this isn't a market, set me straight.

Also, why are you so hung up on gold?

You said so much stupid shit in one paragraph its hard to know where to start.

I dont know anything about securities or comodities?
Where in shit did you even get that I attempted to define either of those in my argument?
Oh wait i didnt, youre just being cute..
Except being ignorant isnt cute.

Youre an idiot if you think those certificates hold any intrinsic value in them whatsoever.

Try buying food with a " gold certificate" if a system fails.
Gold has inherent value..therefore when Gold backs a dollar...a dollar is a dollar in a tangible asset. One that retains its value. A certificate holds no value whatsoever under a broken system..or a crashed one..

When you send cash for a Gold certificate..I am correct, nothing happens OTHER than you hope that if the market started to crash..that you could take that certificate down there, and say..I would like the dollar face amount for this certificate OR I hope you can give me the equivalent in Gold Bullion please. In BOTH cases you will be laughed RIGHT out of the office. Trust me on this one ok? Dont believe me? Then you dont know what youre talking about in even elementary terms about what a certificate is. Its an IOU..which is MARKEDLY different than holding any intrinsic value whatsoever..

When governments print money, despite your delusion that that dollar holds intrinsic only holds value relative to the number of OTHER printed dollars floating around.
Meaning when Paulson and Geitner get their wish to prop our system up by furhter borrowing TRILLIONS of dollars, and then PRINT more money to circulate as cash..guess what happens to the value of that Paper dollar? Think its still worth a dollar when they create a volume equivalent to 2100% of the number of dollars in circulation today?
What about gold? Think they can Create out of thin air 200 metric tons in three weeks to devalue gold as an asset? I bet you dont have a clue.

Ask a zimbabwean which they can buy more rice with..
An ounce of Gold, or an ounce of zimbabwean Billion Dollar notes...
Ask a WW2 survivor what it was like to have to bring a wheelbarrow of paper Marks to buy bread..and would they have rather had an actual asset like gold?

What you THINK is money appearing in your account is fiat.
Meaning that there is NO asset backing or guaranteeing the value of that dollar, to keep that dollar WORTH a dollar. Its a shell game, and it depends on an agreement of worth..

All assets are vulnerable to this as well, such as gold,
but NOWHERE near the extent a paper dollar is vulnerable to this fluctuation of value.

And then we have "the markets"..

You tell me how much influence supply and demand plays a part RELATIVE to the trading in futures which gamble on values relative to each other over a set of time..

You tell ME what percentage of trades in say...Pork Bellies EVER comes down to delivery of pork bellies. Or Corn..or wheat, or Rice.. Meaning when someone places a Put order (since youre an expert, youll know what that means) and his contract matures..what percentage of his order does he take physical control of?

If shares of American Airlines goes up 20%, does that mean that they increased their output by 20% or does it mean that the IMPRESSION is set that they have increased in value by 20% or does it mean that their bottom line profits increased by 20%?

Or this one..Gold futures ...
If I had shorted on a gold contract a week ago, and I put up 100k...with Gold at 1000$/oz and a Put order at $700/oz and it goes to $882 today..did I lose money or make money?

Or gold certificates. How many ounces of physical gold trades hands if I take 200k to my investment broker and tell him to place an order for Gold tomorrow.

Annswer all of those correctly, and you can comment on my market knowledge..
Or else..stfu.
warløckmitbladderinfection wrote:blasphemous new gehenna inhabitant makes god sad...

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PostWed Apr 22, 2009 1:28 am » by Ogmios

Low Six...... Your views really beggar belief. I am sure that the moral high ground is taken by those who rely on non-violent means. Simply having an armed proletariat surely only produces violence for the said society. And America's murder rate must, in anyone's estimation, stand testament to this.

In my opinion, we are all born equal, regardless of societal impulse. Each is one. We are all the same. The idea that we are not is merely an illusion which is accepted by the less intelligent among us

One day, Low Six, you may evolve to a level where this concept is acceptable to your intellectual pallet.
"God is a concept by which we measure our pain"
John Lennon

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PostWed Apr 22, 2009 2:27 am » by Killtylerdurden

LowSix wrote:.

Stock certificates, bud. Stock. Nothing to do with gold certs or any of the other hooey you supplied.

and if AMR were to go up 20%, it just means that owning 1/284,950,000 of the AMR Corporation will cost 20% more. Nothing more, nothing less.

Seriously, if you find a way to actually participate and contribute, your life will suck a lot less, I assure you.

Shell game, lol. Again, ILLUSORY DISTRUST.

edit: Here's an idea... you keep on ragin' against the machine on the internets(i.e. fuck off), and I'll go back to doin' what I've been.

Also, really cute how you just go buck nuts and start slinging the swears and insults and started with the "you tell me, you tell me" without giving a moment's notice to what I was actually saying. You have the reading and reasoning skills of a third grader.

In any case, I concede to you clearly superior levels of wit and rationale. I haven't time to argue all night, I have shell game markets to dupe me bright and early. I HOPE I PICK THE RIGHT SHELL TOMORROW. I'm lookin' for the queen of spades, right? lol :banana:

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PostWed Apr 22, 2009 3:09 am » by Lowsix

Golly gee Kitty, you sure showed me, i guess.

Point still is a lie insofar as there are no assets backing it,
and its value is only dependant onthe number of dollars in circulation..

And you cant buy anything with a stock certificate either...and ITS value is only relative to the number and direction of the bets placed on its worth and not its intrinsic worth either..

Shell game..Lie..semantics.

Why be a douche if you agree in principle..?
warløckmitbladderinfection wrote:blasphemous new gehenna inhabitant makes god sad...

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PostWed Apr 22, 2009 5:43 pm » by Killtylerdurden

LowSix wrote:.

So according to you, nothing but gold has intrinsic value.

Can you eat it or what?

What I'm trying to get across is that fiat money -- or the concept that "money isn't a lie" has a cornerstone in the concept of "faith in (y)our government" and is also tied conceptually to well-being of the issuing state (and no, I don't mean 1/50th of the United States...).

That in mind, prevailing thought around here is that the U.S. government (in particular) does nothing but lie and that our current state of relative well-being is likely to collapse at any minute. To anyone under the spell of either thought, fiat money is an impossibility and simply represents an extension to and evidence of "more government lies".

So, you have your theory and the rest of the social world has theirs. There is no "point still stands" here. You have no point, just an irrational foundation. You know what assets back a fiat money? The fucking government behind it and the society in front of it. Quit with the poor rhetoric and start stickin' your money where your mouth is. Cast aside your government and your society; Head out to the woods. You've made it very clear that you're quite disenfranchised with both.

Anybody who says "money is a lie" and uses it, or has a job, or etc etc is just wasting their time.

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PostTue May 12, 2009 10:50 pm » by Flecktarn

nuada is right
money is only a promise of payment that can be withdrawn by a bank at any time
gold ,silver,diamonds,etc all dug up from the ground ,how much for mud.
we only know value because we have been taught thats the way.
look at the tribes that have no concept of money they have happy lives while we worry about bills debts or the bank reposessing our benifits the bankers,it gives them power over us

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PostTue May 12, 2009 11:05 pm » by Cornbread714

Gold has no intrinsic value other than the stuff that can be made from it. It is quite useful but it seems to me its "value" is attributed.
Where's the beer and when do I get paid?
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