Is Qur'an a miracle?

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PostTue Apr 17, 2012 8:17 pm » by Truthdefender

haansolo wrote:The Bible did not fall magically from the clouds. Man created it as a historical record of tumultuous times, and it has evolved through countless translations, additions, and revisions. History has never had a definitive version of the book
The roman emperor Constantine upgraded Jesus' status almost four centuries after Jesus' death, thousands of documents already existed chronicling His life as a mortal man. To rewrite the history books, Constantine knew he would need a bold stroke. From this sprang the most profound moment in Christian history. . . . Constantine commissioned and financed a new Bible, which omitted those gospels that spoke of Christ's human traits and embellished those gospels that made Him godlike. The earlier gospels were outlawed, gathered up, and burned" :sunny:

Long before Constantine, the very earliest Christians believed Jesus was God, many saw Him alive post Resurrection. There was no confusion about His divinity.

Ignatius of Antioch, on the Divinity of Christ, calls Jesus God 16x in 7 letters (ca. 110 AD)

1. “Jesus Christ our God” Eph inscr, Eph 15:3, Eph 18:2, Tral 7, Ro inscr 2x, Ro 3:3, Smyr 10:1.

2. He speaks of Christ’s blood as “God's blood” Eph 1:1

3. He calls Jesus “God incarnate” Eph 7:2

4. In Jesus “God was revealing himself as a man” Eph 19:3

Epistle to Diognetus (ca. 125 AD) speaking of God the Father, he says:

1. Diognetus 7:2 "he sent the Designer and Maker of the universe himself, by whom he created the heavens and confined the sea within its own bounds" (ca. 125 AD)

2. Diognetus 7:4 “He sent him as God; he sent him as man to men."

Melito of Sardis on Christ's Divnity (d. ca. 190) On the Pasch (Peri Pascha).

1. Translation in Lucien Deiss, ed., Springtime of the Liturgy (College­ville, MN: Liturgical Press, 1979), 97-110.

2. Peri Pascha was only discovered in 1940 and published in 1960.

3. he says Christ "rises from the dead as God, being by nature both God and man" (p. 100 in Deiss, physei Theos n kai anthropos).

4. he also has an anti-Gnostic insistence on Christ's true humanity.

Justin Martyr on the Divinity of Christ (c. 155 AD)

1. says that Christians adore and worship the Son as well as the Father. 1st Apology 6.

2. says Christ, the Word incarnate, is divine 1 Apol 10 & 63

Irenaeus on Christ's Divinity (ca. 185) in his work Adversus Haereses (Against Heresies)

1. Of Jesus he says "He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men; --all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him." AH III.19.2 (Ante Nicene Fathers 1: 449).

Clement of Alexandria on Christ's Divinity (ca. 210 AD)

1. Exhortation to the Heathen, 1: “This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) ad of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man--that Author of all blessings to us. . . . This is the New Song, the manifestation of the Word that was in the beginning, and before the beginning. ... hurch.html

It is very important to clarify exactly what role the Emperor Constantine played in the Council of Nicea, what the purpose for the council was, what happened at Nicea, and briefly how the canon—the Bible as we know it—was formed. Constantine was a Roman Emperor who lived from 274 to 337 A.D. He is most famous for becoming the single ruler of the Roman Empire (after deceiving and defeating Licinius, his brother-in-law) and supposedly converting to Christianity. It is debated whether or not Constantine was actually a believer (according to his confessions and understanding of the faith) or just someone trying to use the church and the faith to his own advantage. Constantine called the Council of Nicea—the first general council of the Christian church, 325 A.D.—primarily because he feared that disputes within the church would cause disorder within the empire. The dispute in mind was Arianism, which was the belief that Jesus was a created being. The famous phrase they were disputing was, "There was when He was not." This was in reference to Jesus and was declared heretical by the council and thus resulted in the following words about Christ in the Nicene Creed: "God from true God…from the Father…not made." It was determined by the council that Christ was homoousia, meaning, one substance with the Father.

Concerning manuscripts that were burned at the order of Constantine, there is really no mention of such a thing actually happening at the order of Constantine or at the Council of Nicea. The Arian party's document claiming Christ to be a created being, was abandoned by them because of the strong resistance to it and was torn to shreds in the sight of everyone present at the council. Constantine, and the Council of Nicea, for that matter, had virtually nothing to do with the forming of the canon. It was not even discussed at Nicea. The council that formed an undisputed decision on the canon took place at Carthage in 397, sixty years after Constantine's death. However, long before Constantine, 21 books were acknowledged by all Christians (the 4 Gospels, Acts, 13 Paul, 1 Peter, 1 John, Revelation). There were 10 disputed books (Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2-3 John, Jude, Ps-Barnabas, Hermas, Didache, Gospel of Hebrews) and several that most all considered heretical—Gospels of Peter, Thomas, Matthaias, Acts of Andrew, John, etc.

Liberal scholars and fictional authors like to purport the idea that the gospels of Thomas and Peter (and other long-disputed books) contain truths that the church vehemently stomped out, but that simply has no basis historically. It is closer to the truth to say that no serious theologians really cared about these books because they were obviously written by people lying about authorship and had little basis in reality. That is one reason why a council declaring the canon was so late in coming (397 AD), because the books that were trusted and the ones that had been handed down were already widely known.

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PostTue Apr 17, 2012 8:40 pm » by Stratosfear

abdul14 wrote:according to google search, a Hindu mathematician by the name of Ramanujacharya is the guy who invented the zero

Cheers :flop:
Image "In the wardrobe of my soul ... in the section labelled 'Shirts'"

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PostTue Apr 17, 2012 8:45 pm » by Truthdefender

The Dark Nature of Muhammad’s Revelations

We begin our further critical examination of Islam with the person of Muhammad and his revelations. For this is where it all started. If we expect to accurately discern the spirit of Islam then we must begin at the foundation, we must examine the seed. Muhammad is the founder of Islam and is believed by Muslims to be the sole human instrument that “received” the words of the Quran directly from Allah. This chapter will review the nature of Muhammad’s spiritual encounters that led to his career as a “prophet” and birthed the religion that now has the attention of the world.
The Birth of the Quran

Muslims believe that when Muhammad received the revelations that have been compiled to make up the Quran, he received them word for word, directly from Allah. As such, Allah is thought to be the actual author of the Quran. The Quran is thus intended to be read as if it is Allah speaking directly in the first person. Muhammad is merely viewed as the human messenger, or the apostle of Allah (rasul-allah). As one Muslim theologian has said, “The prophet was purely passive - indeed unconscious: the Book was in no sense his, neither its thought, nor language, nor style: all was of God, and the Prophet was merely a recording pen.” 1 This stands in distinction to the Christian view of the nature of inspiration of the Bible. Christians understand that while God indeed inspired the authors of Scripture to convey His thoughts and words, each individual author brought to the Scriptures his own individual human style and personality. God used the human agents as His vessels, but He did not literally override them. As we will see, this was not the manner of Muhammad’s revelations.

Karen Armstrong, a popular and highly sympathetic writer about Islam and Muhammad gives this account of the manner of Muhammad’s initial encounter with what Muslims believe was Gabriel (jibril) the “angel” in the cave of Hira:

Muhammad was torn from his sleep in his mountain cave and felt himself overwhelmed by a devastating divine presence. Later he explained this ineffable experience by saying that an angel had enveloped him in a terrifying embrace so that it felt as though the breath was being forced from his body. The angel gave him the curt command: ‘iqra!’ ‘Recite!’ Muhammad protested that he could not recite; he was not a kahin, one of the ecstatic prophets of Arabia. But, he said, the angel simply embraced him again until, just as he thought he had reached the end of his endurance, he found the divinely inspired words of a new scripture pouring forth from his mouth. 2

Armstrong mistakenly however, does not mention that it was not actually until the third time that the “angel” had strangled Muhammad, demanding that he recite, that he finally did so. 3 This encounter stands in stark contrast to the general nature of angelic and divine encounters found throughout the Bible, where the angels (or the Lord Himself) almost always are found beginning their conversation with the comforting phrase, “Do not be afraid.” (Genesis 15:1, 26:24, 46:3, Daniel 8:15-19, 10:12,19, Matthew 28:5,10, Luke 1:13, Luke 1:26-31, 2:10, Revelation 1:17)

We should not be surprised to find out then, that after Muhammad’s terrifying and violent encounter with the spirit in the cave, he literally believed that he was demon possessed. Muhammad became so distraught that he even became suicidal. From Guillaume’s translation of Ibn Ishaq’s famous early biography of Muhammad, sirat-rasul, we read:

So I [Muhammad] read it, and he [Gabriel] departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was as though these words were written on my heart… Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an [ecstatic] poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, “Woe is me poet or possessed - Never shall Quraysh [Muhammad’s tribe and kinsman] say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest.” So I went forth to do so and then when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying "O Muhammad! thou are the apostle of God and I am Gabriel." 3

The reference to “poet or possessed” comes from the notion that Arabs contemporary with Muhammad believed that poets created their poetry under the inspiration of demons. At-Tabari, one of Islam’s most highly respected early historians says, “The pre-Islamic Arabs believed in the demon of poetry, and they thought that a great poet was directly inspired by demons..." 4

After the terrible experience, Muhammad returned home to his wife Khadija. Muhammad was still terribly disturbed by the encounter:

Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration, his neck muscles twitching with terror till he entered upon Khadija and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and then he said, "O Khadija, what is wrong with me?" Then he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." 5

But it was not only Muhammad who suspected a demonic source to his revelations, clearly many of Muhammad’s contemporaries also believed that his revelatory experiences were demonic and that he was demon possessed:

“Yet they turn away from him and say: "Tutored (by others), a man possessed!" - Surah 44:14 (Yusuf Ali)

And say: "What! shall we give up our gods for the sake of a Poet possessed?" -Surah 37:36 (Yusuf Ali)

Apparently it was even necessary that Allah come to Muhammad’s defense and respond to his critics within the Quran itself:

No, your compatriot [Muhammad] is not mad. He saw him [Gabriel] on the clear horizon. He does not grudge the secrets of the unseen, nor is this the utterance of an accursed devil. -Surah 81:22-25

It [the Quran] is no poet's speech: scant is your faith! It is no soothsayer's divination: how little you reflect! It is revelation from the Lord of the Universe. -Surah 69:41,42

It is not surprising then that after reading the comments made regarding Muhammad by his contemporaries as well as after studying the nature of Muhammad’s revelatory experiences, that many scholars have become convinced that Muhammad was either an epileptic or demon possessed or both. 6 After discussing some of the specific physical manifestations of Muhammad’s experiences, John Gilchrist, a South African Christian author and well known authority on Islam, finalizes his analysis of the various physical phenomena that accompanied Muhammad’s revelatory experiences:

It should be pointed out that men can be subjected to a different type of seizure which very closely resembles epilepsy. During the life of Jesus a young boy was brought to him who was "an epileptic" (Matthew 17.15) and who suffered extreme forms of epilepsy (he would suddenly fall down, be convulsed. and be unable to speak). There is no doubt, however, that this epilepsy was not naturally but demonically induced as all three records of the incident (in Matthew 17, Mark 9 and Luke 9) state that Jesus exorcised the unclean spirit in the child and healed the boy. Without passing judgment on Muhammad, let it nevertheless be said that anyone subject to occultic influences could well find that seizures similar to epileptic fits would occur at appropriate times and, instead of causing a loss of memory, would have just the opposite effect and leave firmly induced impressions on the recipient's mind. Throughout the world missionaries have related cases of precisely this nature. To this day such phenomena are not uncommon among oriental ecstatics and mystics and they are widely reported. 7

So while the Apostle Peter describes the experience of the authors of biblical Scripture by referring to men who, “spoke from God” as they were, “moved by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Peter 1:21), the experience of Muhammad was a much more direct, ecstatic and dark experience. It is important to note that none of the biblical prophets ever questioned the source of their revelations. Muhammad’s experience was far more similar to the experience of a spiritist or someone who channels spirits than a biblical prophet.

Other Strange Phenomena

Muhammad’s frightening spiritual encounters did not end with the examples provided above. On another occasion, Muhammad was “bewitched,” whereby he literally believed himself to be having sexual relations with his wives when he was actually doing no such thing. Guillaume notes that one Muslim scholar says that the spell lasted for an entire year. This episode of Muhammad’s life is well documented in Islam’s sacred traditions.

Narrated Aisha (One of Muhammad’s wives): Magic was worked on Allah's Apostle so that he used to think that he had sexual relations with his wives while he actually had not. 8

This absolutely bizarre portion of Muhammad’s life should be enough to give pause to anyone who might consider Muhammad to be a genuine prophet of God - never mind the greatest of all prophets, as Muslims claim. One can only conclude that in order to have fallen into such a delusional state, Muhammad was indeed either literally demon possessed or significantly ill or both. In light of the occultic occurrences that defined Muhammad’s initial “revelatory” experiences, the conclusion is not hard to arrive at for anyone with any genuine spiritual discernment. Of course the contrast here is so stark when we look at the life of Jesus, who rather than being given over to any form of demonic influence, instead freed numerous people from any such form of oppression.


In the final assessment, we see that the revelations of Muhammad - the seeds out of which Islam sprouted, began amidst a violent and dark encounter with some form of spiritual being in the cave of Hira. We have also seen that Muhammad’s life contained periods of either significant delusion or blatant spiritual oppression. It is this dimension of Muhammad’s life that should indeed be noted as we develop the greater theme of this book. Also, when attempting to discern the primary spiritual source of Islam, it is essential to not only see the dark nature of the initial seed from which Islam sprouted but even moreso its ultimate vision of the future - its fully mature “fruit”. The demonic and anti-biblical revelations that began in the Cave of Hira find their culmination with the killing of every Jew, Christian and non-Muslim in the world. ... nature.htm

Read more: muhammad-s-revelation-alien-contact-similarities-t52224.html#ixzz1sKCJ3Xi7

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PostSat Apr 21, 2012 2:48 pm » by Sumonht1990

tuor10 wrote:The Koran was written by a man, who had no formal education. Apparently, the words were fed to him by God.

I personally believe that Mohammed was part of a sect. This sect aided him in the writing of the Koran. That said, there are some very interesting scientific passages in the Koran. I am pretty sure it states the world is round, and mentioned the cycles of the solar system.

Ho ho ha ha ha. You make me laugh. Koran was written by a man! An illiterate man! I know you are a literate. Then write a book like it. I will give you noble.

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PostSun Sep 30, 2012 7:45 pm » by rareminerals

Brother let me say soem thing to All of brothers...
Qurran is Word of God or not .. let me tell you one thing and you judge and you think and you see in book what i am telling you all...

In Bible its mentioned that :::::;
all army with pharaoh die with him in sea ...

in Qurran its mentioned that:::::::::
'' the body of pharaoh is preserved today so it can be a sign for those who come after you."

i just take these verses from Qurran chapter 10 verse 90-92 read completely coz i take that place only for you people...

>>>> Check in the verses of Qurran and According to bible both says thay dawned in Water of sea and dead.. but only one thing which is special and prove that Qurran is Word of God Too coz how its Written that his body is preserved in Water for more then 3 thousand years..and you can see that his body found in completly in water of red sea before 120 years before in 1898 ...
and bible its not mentioned that his body is preserved or not in water ...

and one thing the special one is that ...... That phiraoh was dead with thousands of army in that sea ...
why that not found only Pharaoh found ....

how its written in Qurran and how its preserved today.. Only one thing comes in my mind thats very Special which is That God only knows about feature and no one in the world dont know the feature ,,

this proves that God have write this book who preserved the body of Pharaoh in water for more then 3 thousand years ...
who Mentioned that verses in Qurran for only Our people to see the miricals of Qurran in feature coz Qurran is more then 14 hundred years before and Pharaoh was found in 1892 only 120 years before ..

I think for all my brothers if thay are Muslims or Non Muslims please check these verses in Qurran Chapter 10 Verse 90 to 92 ....
and know whats the reality..

check by your selves.. Qurran verses and Bible verses as i mentioned in this topic...

Read more: ... z27yboKVJv

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PostSun Sep 30, 2012 8:24 pm » by Bandanko

Stratosfear wrote:
abdul14 wrote:according to google search, a Hindu mathematician by the name of Ramanujacharya is the guy who invented the zero

Cheers :flop:

earliest examples of Zero are found carved into a cave wall in a snake temple in Kerela (I believe), well that is what I was told by the guide
we use the indo-Arabic numbering system, we count like the chinese (decimal place system). I watched a documentary on the history of maths once ;)

back on topic...

Yeah it must be a miracle that people believe that stuff written down is what God said... as if the word of god can be codified for us mere humans to understand

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PostSun Sep 30, 2012 9:23 pm » by Pateriot

Iwanci wrote:No, its a fantasy novel just like all other religious texts, the bible included...

Sorry written by man, to be read by man for use by man... there is no miracle in what men do, just a whole heap of 'non understanding' and wishful thinking..

Take whatever makes you happy from it, then trash the rest... just like reading a Harry Potter book really, good guys vs bad guys, good vs evil, the righteous over the unholy, etc etc.. lessons learnt can be summed up into one thing.. be a good person. End of story....


I agree with you up to a point. The primary difference however is that the Quran is a terribly mesogynistic, violent, oppressive, and barbaric text. Actually much like the Old Testement of the Bible... only worse. However Christianity is based on the teachings of Christ who taught a very peaceful, forgiving, loving, and compassionate way and not the Old Testement. "The Law says an eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say unto you love your enemy as yourself and pray for those who treat you badly", "Jesus". He also taught equality of the sexes and non-violence.

Whether you believe either one reflect reality or not, they have created very different religions and cultures.

The net out is that Christian cultures have been able to rise out of the dark ages and to thrive while Islamic cultures are stuck in the 12th century. Christianity has had an overwhelming net positive affect on the World wherein Islam is its oppressor.

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PostSun Sep 30, 2012 9:29 pm » by Fatdogmendoza

Is this more of Revols personnas

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