Merry "Christ"mas, Our Founding Fathers Were "Not" Religious

Fri May 18, 2012 3:25 am » by **The57ironman**

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Fri May 18, 2012 3:45 am » by **Rydher**

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823

You quoting that makes me think you don't understand what he said there. Are you aware that this was what was being preached and advocated by the christian leaders in central Virgina at the time? While it's true that he didn't agree with the virgin birth. During this time of his life he wrote for the need to return to primitive Christianity and restore it to the time of Jesus and the Apostles.

He wrote things like:

It is only by...getting back to the plain and unsophisticated precepts of Christ that we become real Christians.
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=mtj1&fileName=mtj1page050.db&recNum=1028

Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always been as pure as they came from His lips, the whole civilized world would now have been Christian.
http://books.google.com/books/about/Memoir_Correspondence_and_Miscellanies.html?id=B6pGAAAAIAAJ PG.349

He still believed that Jesus was the Savior, in baptism, etc. Not believing in the virgin birth doesn't suddenly wipe out his entire obvious belief in the Christian God. To Orthodox Christians, that's heretical. But you have to understand the time period.

Fri May 18, 2012 5:34 am » by **Td9463**

our founding fathers were religious look at the primary document that produced this country before the constitution was adopted and ratified you know that silly declaration sent to good ole king george,, sunday service was heldi. What at that time was the capital building and jefferson himself Never missed a service,,their personal letters explain their belief in God and devine providence. They believed government should not be involved in doctrine at the pulpit not the other way around. Your stance on history is flawed at best but in reality ,,,,completely wrong,,sorry,,go to this place called the LIBRARY and look at biographies on these men inspired by God and check it out,,but your probably mad right now cursing and all that. Because God didnt give you a participation trophy or maybe you prayed for daddy to stop touching you like that or something so you blame God,,,,pitty,,,will pray for ya boss,,,God bless every aspect of your ever so tiny mind and existence

Fri May 18, 2012 6:10 am » by **The57ironman**

Td9463 wrote:our founding fathers were religious look at the primary document that produced this country before the constitution was adopted and ratified you know that silly declaration sent to good ole king george,, sunday service was heldi. What at that time was the capital building and jefferson himself Never missed a service,,their personal letters explain their belief in God and devine providence. They believed government should not be involved in doctrine at the pulpit not the other way around. Your stance on history is flawed at best but in reality ,,,,completely wrong,,sorry,,go to this place called the LIBRARY and look at biographies on these men inspired by God and check it out,,but your probably mad right now cursing and all that. Because God didnt give you a participation trophy or maybe you prayed for daddy to stop touching you like that or something so you blame God,,,,pitty,,,will pray for ya boss,,,God bless every aspect of your ever so tiny mind and existence

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.....who dat...?....lowsix...?........

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Sat May 19, 2012 5:31 am » by **Jet17**

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823

Read more: posting.php?mode=reply&f=9&t=64770#ixzz1vHTkh19y

Yes, and not once does he say in that, that Jesus is the son of God, but he does say that the birth of him, and the ridiculous nature of her being a virgin isn't something he subscribes to. which makes me believe that maybe he doesn't buy everything else that is written either. otherwise he would mention personal feelings on those matters, in which he doesn't express in my opposition it seems

He also instead of saying the son of god, savior, and one he pledges his faith to, he only states that he is the: "Venerated reformer of human error."

As in correcting everyone common sense on issues. what did this Jesus do if he wasn't born of a virgin and making miracles which Jefferson clearly doesn't believe. No he was out preaching morality and common sense, how is that a venerated reformer?

Anyone who tries to do good is a great leader, and usually regarded as people of great morals.

As for your letter you posted and link.

it talks about the religious division in the north and his stance on it.

for instance this link that you posted:

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?co ... ecNum=1028

specifically says in there that the hierachy and fundamental superstition on of the jesus myth is what needs to be gotten rid of, while people stick to his teachings, and principles.... it says it clearly in here:

Only by banishing .... ...... and scholastic subtleties, which they have NICKNAMED CHRISTIANS.

which if you know what that means, it means getting rid of the fables, and stick to the basic teachings of Jesus.

Once again believing in a historical Jesus, doesn't mean he believes in boogey men and rib women.

People follow Ghandi, and quote from him all the time and he certainly wasn't the son of god.

As for your google book quote that you posted, well, it shows nothing of what you are saying, not once sentence or word. so if that was your error, please post the correct quote and link to it.

Let's examine a quote from him to prove my point:

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

Thomas Jefferson

WOW! That is pretty specific!

Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone.
-- Thomas Jefferson

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise ... without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisfied, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself about those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820

Wow again specific, but yes your 1 quote out of a whole page of Jeffersons writings proves that he was a religious christian, that went to church and donated to his local chapter.

Wow, for a christian he sure didn't want the teachings apart of law.

Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.
-- Thomas Jefferson

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819

OH BOY! and remember that post before that you didn't post the link on, that stated the gospels and his writings on them were accurate to his beliefs? OH BOY!:

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Seems like he is a deist not a religious covenant christian.

Here is my links that actually work:

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jef ... jadms.html

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

To: Td9463:

Why don't you sign in with your real name and speak up and post some of your evidence.... hiding in the shadows dean?

Sat May 19, 2012 5:50 am » by **Jet17**

Wait, I see where you got the quote, yeah everyone should read that entire page and the next. it means nothing of what you intend..... at all....

wow, do better rydher.

http://books.google.com/books?id=B6pGAA ... &q&f=false

Sat May 19, 2012 10:53 am » by **Spock**

I found this, pretty interesting.

http://www.jameswatkins.com/foundingfathers.htm

Sat May 19, 2012 11:06 am » by **MrWho**

http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/
Great series I sawed on TV, it shows to me anyway why the US is the way it is. the passion that they have would be hard to escape being brought up in that land.

Sat May 19, 2012 3:08 pm » by **Rydher**

Jet this posting technique you use of just spewing mounds of utter bullshit that takes up half a page on a forum page is so old. I would have to spend too much time to utterly destroy every quote you have taken out of context because you have zero understanding of the time period. The discussion that he was not a religious man is just utterly ridiculous and I have proven that. I will just put the final nail in your misrepresented argument. This is a subject you are obviously biased against and have no intention of admitting you're wrong, regardless of the evidence to the contrary.

I bet you didn't know that Jefferson didn't like to talk about is personal faith with others unless they were one of his small group of close friends. And even then, he would ask them to return his letters, burn, destroy, or keep it secret after they read it. So that his enemies could not use it against him because he was attacked over it. I can literary list 12 different sources that show and say as much, here is just one. Pg. 206

When Jefferson was younger and his Christian beliefs were more orthodox. He wrote to Levi Lincoln, his attorney general, that if the content of his religious creed from his private letters should "get into print". He would "become the butt of every set of disquisitions which every priest would undertake to write on every tenet it expresses. Their object is not truth, but matter whereon to write against it." This letter can be found here, Pg.459.

There is so much on this it's mind boggling that someone can even try to argue that he wasn't religious. You have no understanding, due to not studying it, of the time period and the religious sects (mainly Restoration, Primitivism and Unitarianism) of the time. He found Unitarianism very satisfying, but still would not call himself as such. As pointed out in the quotes you posted. There is so much information, in his own writings where he calls himself a Christian. But it was during the period of the Restoration movement his beliefs did not mesh with what it meant to be an orthodox Christian.

What can be said is his personal theology and Christian faith at the end of his life can be debated and honestly, only he and God know. Because with most people, except for many people of this site, his spiritual growth changed throughout his life. But unquestionably, that though his entire life he is pro-Christian and pro-Jesus in his beliefs.

I would suggest if this is something you're interested in, this time period, then men and their spiritual beliefs. That you stop Googling, go pick up some books on one of the founding fathers, make sure EVERYTHING is heavily footnoted. Read those books, take notes, and go look up the footnotes and read what these men actually said within the context of the time period, who each man was and how they conducted their lives. I just happened to of finished all my books on Thomas Jefferson. Took me about 7 months to read them all and look up the actual documents. I started with Jefferson because of the very stuff you are saying. I wanted to find out for myself. I would love to do John Adams next but I can't wait to start George Washington.

This is a subject and time period that I absolutley love to learn about. When you start reading and doing your own fact finding about this time period. It really puts everything in context and while not perfect men. They were extraordinary.

Sat May 19, 2012 3:30 pm » by **Stevestv65**

Nice to see a bit of sense on disclose.tv for a change,oh and fuck you rhyder