My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

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PostTue Oct 27, 2009 2:53 am » by Lowsix


Ok so its clear your going to fire that first shot and then run away without answering one simple question:
And your brother had to come with the answer..(thx Marduk)

What language did Jesus speak?
(yes Telco...you are about to "get taught"..pay close attention)

Jesus spoke Aramaic.

Know what language David Spoke?
He spoke Hebrew.

Therefore, David WAS lamenting that he thought God had abandoned him, he was not prophesying anything to do with Jesus death as many churches teach. Nor, when Jesus spoke the words was HE referring to being left alone to die.

Now we come to Jesus words..

Had he in fact been using the phrase as David was using it, he would have said it in Hebrew. Jesus did not quote this Psalm. If He had, He would have used Hebrew instead of Aramaic, and if He had translated it from Hebrew He would have used the Aramaic word "nashatani," which means "forsaken me," instead of the word "Shabakthani," which in this case means..something else entirely.

Now, had Jesus actually been complaining that he had been forsaken, he would not have said this to Peter (who WAS afraid that Jesus had been forsaken on the cross) But Jesus reassures him with the following, hardly words of one who felt they had been left alone to die or been forsaken, as is commonly claimed...:

""Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He shall presently give Me more than twelve legions of angels?"
(Matt. 26:53).



This statement tells me that Christ had full confidence in the Father's fidelity to Him. He also said, "O My Father, if this cup may not pass away from Me, except I drink it, Thy will be done" (Matt. 26:42). Obviously the Father let Him know that They would be together throughout the entire ordeal.

So then, what was Jesus in fact saying with the Uttered Cry?:

"Eli, Eli, Lemanatha Shakbathani"

Well, the Roman soldiers, not being fluent in Aramaic,
assumed he was crying out for Elijah.

"Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried [out] with a loud voice, [and said], Eli, Eli, Lemana Shabakthani! Some of the men who were standing by when they heard it, said, this man calleth for Elias" (Matt. 27:45-47, Orig. Text).

Had he been lamenting being forsook, he would have uttered the Cry:
"Eli, Eli, lamana nashatani".

So what does SHABAKTHANI mean in Aramaic?

Simply put, it means "Kept Me".

In Sects in Syria, where Aramiac is still spoken ceremonially, and at other times formally, the phrase "Eli Eli Lemana Shabakthani" is still used, BUT it is used when someone is being put to death unjustly, or otherwise suffering unjustly..It is a cry of submission, that they know they are being martyred, and that they are actually saying the following (even in contemporary use) Instead of complaining they are leaving their fate up to god.. as in:

"My God, My God, for this I was kept [this was My destiny-I was born for this]."


Those are the words Jesus spoke on the Cross, in Aramaic.
The slight error was made in the translation TO greek.

But in fact, it was Jesus CONFIRMING that it was his destiny, the reason for his birth was his death, and that he was acknowledging that he was till being kept by god for this very purpose..The last act of a man-god, being rendered COMPLETELY man at his death, as a man (or men) die.

Another innacuracy was in the word Lemana vs Lamana...(where LEMANA implies, My god My God, for this i was spared) again confirming his acknowledgement of destiny. http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclo ... abakthani/

sources:
http://www.therefinersfire.org/forsaken_me.htm
http://www.alamoministries.com/content/ ... _Said.html

next.....
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warløckmitbladderinfection wrote:blasphemous new gehenna inhabitant makes god sad...

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PostTue Oct 27, 2009 2:54 am » by Spock


telocvovim wrote:yeah he was flesh

he took residence in flesh and blood

but he knew it all

he had a flatrate connection to THE SOURCE OF THE UNIVERSE!!!

Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forever more, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

but he was afraid

why?


You last quote is after the resurrection.

He had a source - yea - but he was still completely human. He had hunger, fear and all that comes with being human (as he was flesh).

The "god" side of him had an understanding that he was carrying on the correct mission. He knew what his mission was, and he was stressed over it - to the point of sweating blood.

He prayed to god to "take the cup away from him" in the garden, because he was afraid of the pending doom.

But God's plan was (for whatever reason - as I don't understand it all) to offer us grace and deliverance from mankind having to follow laws (of redemption). These laws were written by nomads that had to adhere to a strict doctrine in order to have cohesion as a group (or tribe). To claim that Christians stick to that type of doctrine today is out of sync. Every tribe was living a brutal code of law. It was the way.

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PostTue Oct 27, 2009 2:56 am » by Slith


He was a pawn for Humanity., plain and simple, a guinea pig with an agenda. If you believe in that stuff. To cleanse the world of sin. Umm check the papers lately and for the last two thousand years. Didn't work. We still are a nether group and such
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PostTue Oct 27, 2009 3:06 am » by Nelusmc


From what I have come to understand is that before he died everyone went to hell bc of the first sin by Adam. Jesus tells them a parable of a rich man and a poor man when the poor man died he went to where Abraham was and the rich man was being tortured in flames but there was a gap between the two after Jesus died he went to hell and removed his people from that domain. And the sins were for ever placed upon him those that recieve his gift If not you die in your sin. (Read the gospel of Nicodemus)

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PostTue Oct 27, 2009 3:17 am » by Nelusmc


It lead to choice, before everyone went there rightious as well as sinners just that there was a spacing. Now you get to choose between two paths not just one. Salvation is individually
no one can force anyone to come to him. And he's a gentlemen is not gonna force himself upon no one, but will always be there with his arms open to all that come to him. And he will have you as son. And he will reveal himself to people that come to him.

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PostTue Oct 27, 2009 3:18 am » by -Marduk-


telocvovim wrote:
THE SOURCE OF THE UNIVERSE!!!



Absolutly right Bro,...dats "The Presence" I always babbled about...now you got it!

When we enter the spirit world as souls "The Source" will be the closest thing we get to God...but it might be ...not the "Ultimate Creator". Even so,"The Presence" is equated with a larger omnipotent and omnipresent energy force in the spirit world.
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PostTue Oct 27, 2009 4:27 am » by Spock


dlslith wrote:He was a pawn for Humanity., plain and simple, a guinea pig with an agenda. If you believe in that stuff. To cleanse the world of sin. Umm check the papers lately and for the last two thousand years. Didn't work. We still are a nether group and such


No, it didn't rid us of sin. Sin is what we all do. It delivers us from the wages of sin. From not being "perfect".

I also understand your anger with the organization of religion.

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PostTue Oct 27, 2009 4:29 am » by Lowsix


telocvovim wrote:oh yeah...

for this i was kept! LOL


I had that feeling that the best you could come up with was "lol".

Its embarrassing to be as dead wrong as you are on the facts..(often) and so to laugh it off is generally the easiest response. I am sorry to have to correct you on this one, since yours is a popular objection to the phrase..and it sucks to be educated on the real linguistic meaning of the words used...it changes the whole meaning of the phrase..

But hey, you dont have to take my word for it, you can dig through those language links for yourself to see that I wasn't making it up.

Sometimes those dead languages can come and bite the ignorant in the ass...like yours.

Better luck next time.

( wait till i organize my piece on your precious Gnostics..and their lovely habits and rituals..)

can you say "yummy"?
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warløckmitbladderinfection wrote:blasphemous new gehenna inhabitant makes god sad...

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PostTue Oct 27, 2009 4:34 am » by Strider2


spock wrote:I wish I were 1/1000 the man that man was.


I don't think that "He" ever meant it to be a contest. It's the ego avenue that leads to the "holier than thou" or "I'm less than others" thinking.

If we accepted and loved even those people we disagree with or considered "enemies" then none of us would be alienated. None of us would be hated and you can't help but wonder what might happen, because if there is one thing human history proves that we have never tried this before on a large scale...

Despite many suggestions to the contrary - including Christ's - war, conflict and division continue to rule us. The only reason it rules us is because we agree to let it rule us.

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PostTue Oct 27, 2009 4:37 am » by Lucidlemondrop


Tel............

I asked a preacher this question once..........he explained it that god couldn't be touched by sin and that since jesus was a man he couldn't commune with him.........

That's what the man said.........

[youtube]58dFNw6oncU&feature=related[/youtube]

I like the song by System of a Down................when angels refuse to die.................I love that line in the song...........

I really have no opinion here.........just wanted to comment cause I myself spent some time with this one................never was satisfied by the response..........but that's just me..........
What a long strange trip it's been..............


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