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PostThu Aug 30, 2012 5:40 am » by Cia212

Aragajag wrote:...they were around a few hundred years or so ago.

Interesting, where does it document that?

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PostThu Aug 30, 2012 9:14 am » by Iwanci

Spock, I firmly believe that there is something mysterious about ‘some’ of these crop circles, no doubt much needs to be explained because the current common knowledge does not offer any readily identifiable answers to some of the curiosities, like with the nodes as you state. However, just because WE (the common people) do not understand who or how these are being created, it does not necessarily mean that they are not being created by man using some form of manipulation.

Yes there are lots of unanswered questions, no doubt, and I do not have the answers. However, we need to start thinking more rationally about these issues. History has shown that most of the time the most obvious answer is usually the correct one.

I do not believe in mystical beings my friend, I will state this upfront. God/satan, for me are mystical beings, a figment of our imagination. I do believe in extra terrestrial life, however, I do not believe that if they bothered to communicate with us and make themselves known to us they would not give us greater questions than answers, they would be a little more obvious and less cryptic, in my opinion.

Usually when I have needed to understand a person’s motivation, I have tended to follow the money. Money/greed is one of the greatest motivators we will ever know, so why not do so in this instance? Why do we follow the money trail only when it suits and not when it conflicts with our own thoughts? I set one standard as a benchmark and I use this even when analysing my own motivations, obviously I use other tests also.

Having said all that, I am NO expert on crop circles, but am a great ‘logical’ thinker, when I add one plus one, it needs to result in a two or I get sceptical.

Conoscenti, you do realise what you are studying when you study theory don’t you? You are studying a ‘theory’, a possibility and NOT a fact. Theories are only valid until the next more plausible theory takes it place. The cycle only stops when the theory becomes a fact, and even then we have been known to change the fact. So my friend, your ‘theory’ about crop circles is just as valid as my theory about crop circles as indeed to anyone else’s theory. In this context we are all possibly correct. Time will tell.

You mention that a scientist will not risk their reputation? I thought science was ONLY about discovery? How many scientists will gladly place their name on a new discovery if there was absolute truth in it? ALL OF THEM. The more association you have to new scientific breakthroughs the greater the accolades and the higher your status, the more funding you receive for research etc. So then, why not place your name against a new breakthrough or discovery such as a crop circle formation? The obvious and most simple answer can only be, that they themselves are not 100% convinced about these crop circles being ‘paranormal’. If they are not convinced, why should we be so easily convinced? I have a simple rule in life, if you believe with all your heart something is correct, why hide it? Why lie? Why talk in riddles? Just come out and state your case, you will be judged as either being a genius or a madman. Interestingly enough, most of our past geniuses were judged as being mad men. Why? Because they believed, they were men of conviction, unafraid of being judged.

On another note Cognoscenti, I do not require your help mate. I do not require your proof. I do not require anything from you at all apart from one thing only. FACTS. Now, as you are the ‘believer’ the onus of proof rests with you. So, please keep researching, when you are 100% convinced you have all the answers, let’s hear them. Asking the questions does not equate to providing the answers. So simply stating things like.. ‘how do you explain.... or... how can they be created in such little time? .... or .... why are the nodes bent in that place? ... or... why are radiation levels higher in some places?” etc etc .. does not prove nor provide any evidence of anything other than what we already know to be true, and that is, that neither YOU nor I KNOW.

So, back to the drawing board. I will not believe in anything being paranormal simply because we do not understand it, yet. Now, if an ORB fly’s down on my front lawn and creates a circle for me in front of my eyes, then I will gladly announce to the world that I was wrong, I have been wrong before and I hope to be wrong again, but I refuse to follow where the leader is himself wearing the blindfold of ignorance.
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PostThu Aug 30, 2012 11:54 am » by SamueltheLion

Spock wrote:
Iwanci wrote:Seriously people... look at things for what they are, not for what they are not. Weigh up the arguments for and against and apply a little common sense... then make up your minds...

If all of these are made by people in a very short span of time, how do you propose they change the length of the nodes at the bend of the stalk in a pattern which creates longer nodes on the edges of each the circles to shorter elongated nodes towards the center?

This is what is baffling. The length of time it takes to actually create a mosaic of such grand splendor, the technical precision working in darkness and the actual change in each stalks biology.

There are some accredited researchers that have raised the findings, and nobody has ever been able to come forth with a reasonable explanation.

This is why there is a mystery, not simply because people wish to believe in aliens, but because there is absolute intelligence behind these formations created in a manner which can not simply be shrugged off as a group of artist playing a hoax.

And ultimately, as we have seen for as long as anything in the field of this phenomena has been present, the intelligences behind it are also, very much, the orchestrators of the secrecy.

It is apparent there is a grand illusion and each of these separate phenomenas work to dangle a carrot in front of our nose, leading us in all sorts of directions; and the only thing we can be sure of is: there is something going on.

To understand, read Jaques Vallees' "Messengers of Deception".

just a quote for truth.

stuff gets flooded by the shit other people post.

great post spock

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PostThu Aug 30, 2012 1:05 pm » by Rich316

If you've ever been into one of these crop fields, you'll soon see how uneven the ground is under your feet. I just cant imagine that people, armed with planks and ropes or whatever their tool of choice may be, could actually pull this off without falling flat on their asses and making a huge mess.. But we're told otherwise and they leave with no sign of entering or exiting the field, all under the cover of darkness..
Try and walk around your own home, something you're familiar with, in the dark.. Sure they probably use torches and lighting etc, but still, it's far more difficult at night...

So there's a group of people who claim to make them, have put out a couple of videos - The new 'Doug and Dave' you might call them.. Are they responsible for all of them? I doubt it.

I don't know who is making them but they're pretty darn impressive.

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PostThu Aug 30, 2012 1:07 pm » by Spock

Thanks Sam.

@ Iwanci. It looks like we agree on the subject for the most part.

Here's what I find very interesting in the 2 schools of camp on this and other subjects...

It seems that the difference in the people that are die-hard against the idea, as opposed to the people that allow for the possibility of the idea of unknown intelligences is control of belief system and life.

The die-hard skepticism, to the point of anger almost seems to come from a deep need to convince oneself that they are in total control of their life - or that they have a firm grasp. To admit there is the possibility of something unexplainable (at least at this phase of our evolution) would be to somehow admit they aren't in control.

I say this because of the fierceness of the position, in both camps really, but especially in the camp which demands that there is a simple explanation for it. The approach that there may not be somehow is construed as an insult to their intelligence, so in return there is an attempt to downplay the intelligence of the believers. In actuality, just like faith in religion, to be adamant about either position is flawed.

The safest and most logical position is an unsure one. Allowing for the possibility of either as the ultimate answer. Not being so wrapped up in a position as to skew genuine findings, in either direction.

Personally, as I've stated, I fall more on the side of there being something we don't understand as the likely candidate, I can't prove it personally, but the findings of many researchers which seem to relay as much does not hurt my feelings. And I think to understand my personal position on this it takes having the rug ripped out from under you feet at some point in life. At some point experiencing something to where you have to throw your hands in the air and come to the realization that what we are packaged and spoon fed (by our senses) is not necessarily the truth or adequately define reality. That just because 1 + 1 does equal 2, does not mean there are not many more equations that are still baffling the experts and we may not even have the capacity to understand the level of mathematics it takes to write the equation, much less understand the ramifications of it.

I can not convince anyone what to belief, but I am convinced there is something going on just outside of our understanding and our collective peripheral. It acts as some sort of mechanism of change and manipulates, whether good or bad, I think both; but it is the stuff of lore; inspiration and horror.

The real question to all of this stuff is: What the hell is it?
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PostThu Aug 30, 2012 1:19 pm » by Rich316

And why hasn't someone deciphered them? If it's some sort of message or language, there's plenty now to measure them against each other.. ahh really frustrating we still don't 'get it'...

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PostThu Aug 30, 2012 1:47 pm » by Cognoscenti

@iwanci: You do not need to educate me about the nature of theory. I have a science background. Theories are built upon observations and facts. At least by now it appears evident that even the most hardened skeptic realizes that the worn out stomper board explanation touted by Doug and Dave and sustained for about 20 years can no longer be accepted. As with this formation it simply doesn't fit the observational facts, and must be discarded. I make no claim to know the exact nature of the true Circlemakers, but the thory that best fits all the observational facts does not include humans on the ground using mechanical flattening devices. Dr. Terence Meaden, renowned British meteorologist published his book The Circles Effect and it's Mysteries in June, 1989. His theory was that crop circles were the result of rotating plasma vortexes-a rare form of ball lightning. His theory had to be thrown out when formations consisting of conter-rotating concentric rings and straight lines appeared.

Indisputable facts:

1)The phenomenon is not new. Professor Robert Plot, curator of the Ashmoleam museum at Oxford universitydescribed crop circles including simple circles, spirals, rings inscribing squares, and ringed circles in his book The Natural History of Stffordshire published over 300 years ago in 1686. Many are familiar with the 1678 woodcut of the mowing devil.
2) The phenomenon has been accelerating in complexity since around 1990.
3) There is an intelligence behind the phenomenon, which has emphasized sacred geometry,and the
recurring theme of squaring the circle and the mathematical constants of pi and phi (the golden ratio)

4) New, never before described theorems of Euclidean geometry, new methods of constructing parabolae, and the demonstration of pi as a ratcheted spiral have appeared in crop circles, and nowhere in any of humanity's mathematical literature.
5) plant stem node elongation and bending
6) clay soil crystallization in some examined formations indicating the application of high heat and pressure, yet without any damage to the plants
7) high density of iron microspherules in some examined formations indicating the iron was initially in a molten state bfore being deposited as a glaze on the plants and soil only within the formation.
8) The discovery by Dudley and Chorost of 13 short lived radionuclides in an English crop formation, from an inexpilcable source.
9) seed germination studies indicating accelerated germination and growth from seeds taken from mature plants in crop circles
10) Balls of light filmed by multiple witnesses flying over crop circle fields
11) At least eighty eyewitness reports of crop formations going down in front of their eyes within seconds

Even if you choose to dispute #10, and #11, what theory of yours fits the facts the best?

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PostThu Aug 30, 2012 2:33 pm » by SamueltheLion

nah nah nah cognoscenti that's all waaaaayyyy too complicated

"if your theory doesn't fit the facts, change the facts!" ;)

albert einstein said this, no less, what did he mean by it? a-haha, the tricksters
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PostThu Aug 30, 2012 3:06 pm » by Hurtswhenipee

Great debate.

Here is some other unexplained ball type energy

Upload to

I was with my 3 year old daughter as we entered the basement of our new home in Oregon (Living there about a week) I was walking holding her hand as she stopped in her tracks and gasped and I said what's wrong and she said there was a little boy there and she pointed ahead of us. I saw nothing. Then after about 10 seconds she went forward as he had gone around the corner, acording to her and vanished. I was sleeping down there because there was a pellet stove there and I recall the cold very cold temperature experienced by many with these experiences.
There are many things unexplained but some of the far fetched things to someone just 150 years ago would be that you would tell a person from early 1800's that there is music playing in your head but you can't hear it! There are moving pictures right in front of your eyes but you can't see them! There are millions of conversations taking place in your head but you can't hear them. Radio, television and cell phones. The person would think your nuts. We accept that there are these things and more because we know they exist.
It is reasonable that any number of things exist, that we are unaware of . :flop:

As of now I am going to call Crop Circles UNEXPLAINED and continue to observe data as it becomes available. Everyone is in a hurry to lable things today.

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PostThu Aug 30, 2012 4:05 pm » by Aragajag

@ Cia212 This is what gets me interested in it but thats about it, not living near the areas or ever seeing one nor trained so I cant prove anything either way.


As incredible as this may sound, documented reports of crop formations go back to at least 815 AD. Agobard, the Archbishop of Lyons, issued an edict prohibiting pagans from taking seeds out of crop circles for their fertility rituals.

Obviously they were a regular phenomenon for this to be mentioned so casually in the official church records.

These next three excerpts help round out the story. Even the BBC covered this story at one point (emphasis added):

When do the circles date from? One of the earliest reports was in Lyon in 815AD, and a late 16th Century woodcut depicts the devil mowing a field into patterns. ... Fragments/

The oldest known recorded crop circle event occurred in the 9th century in France, where the Bishop of Lyon sent out a prohibition to the recently converted locals against using seeds taken from crop circles for pagan fertility rituals.

In 815 AD, Agobard, the archbishop of Lyon, wrote “Against the foolish opinion of the masses about hail and thunder ” and reported that people believed in “Tempestarii ”, which had conjured cloud ships from Magonia, a far-off place in the skies.

These resulted in fierce storms, and a ransom was demanded on behalf of the Magonians in the form of crops they had flattened.

The account was made famous by UFO researcher Jacques Vallee in his “Passport to Magonia ”, in which he underlined that the UFO phenomenon seemed to be a modern variation of an ancient theme...


There is a rich history of crop circle legends where these formations are referred to as "fairy rings" or "fairy circles." This Wikipedia entry has a surprisingly large amount of links and supporting data regarding these historic accounts.

It was believed the circles were formed in the aftermath of fairies and other mythical beings dancing in circles.

In some cases it seems you have a ring of mushrooms or flowers that grow in a circle, as we will see, but other legends seem consistent with what the Bishop of Lyons was referring to in 815 AD.

You can see from the Wikipedia entry that the "fairy ring" legend is vast in scope and extends through many different cultures, over at least several hundred years -- to at least the 12th century:

The Middle English term elferingewort ("elf-ring"), meaning "a ring of daisies caused by elves' dancing" dates to the 12th century.

Hall, Alaric (2007). Elves in Anglo-Saxon England: Matters of Belief, Health, Gender and Identity. Rochester, New York: Boydell & Brewer. ISBN 978-1-84383-294-2

An illustration of a "fairy ring" was also posted in the Wikipedia entry, found in a book on British folklore from 1880. This is photographic evidence clearly establishing that the fairy ring legend was associated with flattened circles of crops:

This next excerpt on fairy rings goes into greater detail about the "fairy ring" phenomenon as it relates to modern crop circles:

Indeed, circles on the ground have always had a magical connotation. Take, for example, the fairy rings, which are linked with tales of passers-by that were lured away to the land of the fairies.

As such, these fairy rings were “doorways into other dimensions ”, which is another theory proposed about what crop circles might represent.

In German-speaking Europe, fairy rings are known as Hexenringe, or “witches rings ”, stemming from an old medieval belief that the rings represented places where witches would have their gatherings.

In English folklore, fairy rings were said to be caused by elves, fairies or pixies dancing in a circle, wearing down the grass beneath their feet. These mythical creatures, of course, are often associated with mysterious balls of light.


You may remember that our BBC article mentioned a woodcut of "the Devil mowing a field into patterns," but it didn't go into detail. This is a fascinating chapter in the history of crop circles, documented as happening in 1678.

In short, a farmer was trying to hire someone to harvest his crops, and the laborer wanted to charge more than the farmer could afford. The farmer angrily chased off the laborer, saying something like "I'd rather have the Devil cut my crops down than pay your price!"

That night a very bright light appeared over the crops -- "as if it had been all aflame" -- which the farmer clearly noticed, and the next day a crop circle had appeared -- "so neatly mow'd... that no Mortal Man was able to do the like".

The farmer attributed this phenomenon to the so-called "Mowing Devil." Here is an actual image of the woodcut, complete with a picture of what the crop circle looked like, along with an illustration of the alleged devil. After the image we have a transcript of what it actually says:


THE MOWING-DEVIL: OR, STRANGE NEWS OUT OF HARTFORD-SHIRE. Being a True Relation of a Farmer, who Bargaining with a Poor Mower, about the Cutting down Three Half Acres of Oats: upon the Mower's asking too much, the Farmer swore That the Devil should Mow it rather than He.

And so it fell out, that very Night, the Crop of Oat shew'd as if it had been all of a flame: but next Morning appear'd so neatly mow'd by the Devil or some Infernal Spirit, that no Mortal Man was able to do the like.

Also, How the said Oats ly now in the Field, and the Owner has not Power to fetch them away. Licensed, August 22nd, 1678.

More> ... &Itemid=70
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