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PostMon Nov 12, 2012 2:50 am » by Blotto


only thing stopping cheap energy, is greed, pure greed, governments don't run the world, corporations do.
and i don't see that changing anytime soon.

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PostMon Nov 12, 2012 2:50 am » by Opalserpent


Blotto wrote:it kind of makes you wonder about, all the ufo sightings over water were ufo's suck up water, i wonder what the waters used for hmm , i bet the occupants know how to extract a 100% of the energy.



Good point man, mabey they only need a catalyser of some sought to split the water apart inside their craft.
That would make water the most valuable commodity on Earth and we don't even realise it.

No wonder Bush family owns the southern hemispheres largest natural water aquifer in the world.

The So called Fossil Fuels will never run out anyway because the core of the earth produces hydrocarbons which seep to the surface constantly and old oil wells refill.

Water is about the only thing that the elite can't completely own yet besides our freedom.
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PostMon Nov 12, 2012 2:55 am » by Blotto


Opalserpent wrote:
Blotto wrote:it kind of makes you wonder about, all the ufo sightings over water were ufo's suck up water, i wonder what the waters used for hmm , i bet the occupants know how to extract a 100% of the energy.



Good point man, mabey they only need a catalyser of some sought to split the water apart inside their craft.
That would make water the most valuable commodity on Earth and we don't even realise it.

No wonder Bush family owns the southern hemispheres largest natural water aquifer in the world.

The So called Fossil Fuels will never run out anyway because the core of the earth produces hydrocarbons which seep to the surface constantly and old oil wells refill.

Water is about the only thing that the elite can't completely own yet besides our freedom.


yep i think its something like 70% of the earth is covered by water. the most abundant energy available .
and its also the most suppressed.

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PostMon Nov 12, 2012 2:58 am » by Opalserpent


Blotto wrote:only thing stopping cheap energy, is greed, pure greed, governments don't run the world, corporations do.
and i don't see that changing anytime soon.


We can bypass them though, they have made us dependant on petrol agriculture for our food but we can fight back eventually by growing our own food and powering our own homes with hydrogen.

I agree with you though but seeing that Australians are releasing hydrogen car kits to increase range is a start.

Powering your own home isn't going to happen I realize since you could never get the hybrid system approved by the local energy company just to go off grid because they themselves aren't going to
benefit from you going off grid in the first place.

This would work well for someone on a remote block of land far away from prying fascist owned by foreign banks governmental eyes where you could experiment on making your own solar hydrogen generation system for personal use.
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PostMon Nov 12, 2012 3:04 am » by Opalserpent


Looks like americans have this kit for cars too.

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm
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PostMon Nov 12, 2012 3:07 am » by Blotto


yes unfortunately you need quite a bit of money, and a lot of land, to make yourself self sufficient .
especially in this health and safety driven world.
Last edited by Blotto on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostMon Nov 12, 2012 3:09 am » by Blotto


Opalserpent wrote:Looks like americans have this kit for cars too.

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm


yeh its been about for quite a wile, but most people think it sounds to good to be true, have not tried it myself though, so i can only speculate about it, it seems genuine enough though. given the science behind it.

youtube is awash with how to DIY it , if your that way inclined.

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PostMon Nov 12, 2012 3:15 am » by Mr.Richardson


Cia212 wrote:"Proof" that huh?

Sure. This is the process of electrolysis - from Georgia State University http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/thermo/electrol.html
Electrolysis of Water
By providing energy from a battery, water (H2O) can be dissociated into the diatomic molecules of hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (O2). This process is a good example of the the application of the four thermodynamic potentials.


The electrolysis of one mole of water produces a mole of hydrogen gas and a half-mole of oxygen gas in their normal diatomic forms. A detailed analysis of the process makes use of the thermodyamic potentials and the first law of thermodynamics. This process is presumed to be at 298K and one atmosphere pressure, and the relevant values are taken from a table of thermodynamic properties.

Quantity H2O H2 0.5 O2 Change
Enthalpy -285.83 kJ 0 0 ΔH = 285.83 kJ
Entropy 69.91 J/K 130.68 J/K 0.5 x 205.14 J/K TΔS = 48.7 kJ

The process must provide the energy for the dissociation plus the energy to expand the produced gases. Both of those are included in the change in enthalpy included in the table above. At temperature 298K and one atmosphere pressure, the system work is

W = PΔV = (101.3 x 103 Pa)(1.5 moles)(22.4 x 10-3 m3/mol)(298K/273K) = 3715 J
Since the enthalpy H= U+PV, the change in internal energy U is then

ΔU = ΔH - PΔV = 285.83 kJ - 3.72 kJ = 282.1 kJ
This change in internal energy must be accompanied by the expansion of the gases produced, so the change in enthalpy represents the necessary energy to accomplish the electrolysis. However, it is not necessary to put in this whole amount in the form of electrical energy. Since the entropy increases in the process of dissociation, the amount TΔS can be provided from the environment at temperature T. The amount which must be supplied by the battery is actually the change in the Gibbs free energy:

ΔG = ΔH - TΔS = 285.83 kJ - 48.7 kJ = 237.1 kJ
Since the electrolysis process results in an increase in entropy, the environment "helps" the process by contributing the amount TΔS.


So, compression is still a HUGE issue since additional electricity has to be applied to expand the gas under increasingly higher pressures. Then, burning the hydrogen in the generator will only be ~40-60% efficient which means you're only getting half of the energy back upon burning (not counting the needed compression which hurts you even further). Even if you discarded the generator completely and used a fuel cell, the efficiency would only approach 83%.

Getting back half of the power needed to create the hydrogen - even less after drying and compression - means this doesn't run on pee. It runs on the massive amount of power needed to create, process and compress the hydrogen.

Can you see how that works?


I just want to point out that this applies to water and not urine my friend.

As someone here pointed out, there is the ammonia content in urine, for one, but there is also the lower PH of urine (making it acidic) that needs to be considered.

Consider a standard Lead Acid battery like in your truck or car: If the cell is dead as a doornail, the PH of the solution inside will be nearly neutral and technically is mostly water at this point - in fact, you condition and service these batteries by adding PH neutral water to them. However, when you charge the battery, the PH of the solution changes and becomes highly acidic again (lower on PH scale) once it has regained it's charge. So a charged battery has acid, a dead battery has water.

Now, let's say you didn't have a way to charge your dead battery because you lack a source of electricity: Just drain out the neutral water from the battery and refill it with acid. using a weak acid in Lemon Juice or straight up Hydrochloric acid in toilet bowl cleaner or even Sulphuric Acid in drain clog remover. Without any electricity or "energy input" you'll be pulling a decent amount of juice from this previously dead cell.

This generator in the video is most likely working from the same principles of this electrochemical process. It's not that anyone is altering the laws of physics to produce the hydrogen output (obviously, because this same device won't work with just water), but they are instead conforming to the laws by using a solution already containing potential energy instead. It just so happens that Urine has both the energy and the hydrogen for the process; the Urine is the battery.

It's actually brilliant.

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PostMon Nov 12, 2012 3:26 am » by Mr.Richardson


Mr.Richardson wrote:
Cia212 wrote:"Proof" that huh?

Sure. This is the process of electrolysis - from Georgia State University http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/thermo/electrol.html
Electrolysis of Water
By providing energy from a battery, water (H2O) can be dissociated into the diatomic molecules of hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (O2). This process is a good example of the the application of the four thermodynamic potentials.


The electrolysis of one mole of water produces a mole of hydrogen gas and a half-mole of oxygen gas in their normal diatomic forms. A detailed analysis of the process makes use of the thermodyamic potentials and the first law of thermodynamics. This process is presumed to be at 298K and one atmosphere pressure, and the relevant values are taken from a table of thermodynamic properties.

Quantity H2O H2 0.5 O2 Change
Enthalpy -285.83 kJ 0 0 ΔH = 285.83 kJ
Entropy 69.91 J/K 130.68 J/K 0.5 x 205.14 J/K TΔS = 48.7 kJ

The process must provide the energy for the dissociation plus the energy to expand the produced gases. Both of those are included in the change in enthalpy included in the table above. At temperature 298K and one atmosphere pressure, the system work is

W = PΔV = (101.3 x 103 Pa)(1.5 moles)(22.4 x 10-3 m3/mol)(298K/273K) = 3715 J
Since the enthalpy H= U+PV, the change in internal energy U is then

ΔU = ΔH - PΔV = 285.83 kJ - 3.72 kJ = 282.1 kJ
This change in internal energy must be accompanied by the expansion of the gases produced, so the change in enthalpy represents the necessary energy to accomplish the electrolysis. However, it is not necessary to put in this whole amount in the form of electrical energy. Since the entropy increases in the process of dissociation, the amount TΔS can be provided from the environment at temperature T. The amount which must be supplied by the battery is actually the change in the Gibbs free energy:

ΔG = ΔH - TΔS = 285.83 kJ - 48.7 kJ = 237.1 kJ
Since the electrolysis process results in an increase in entropy, the environment "helps" the process by contributing the amount TΔS.


So, compression is still a HUGE issue since additional electricity has to be applied to expand the gas under increasingly higher pressures. Then, burning the hydrogen in the generator will only be ~40-60% efficient which means you're only getting half of the energy back upon burning (not counting the needed compression which hurts you even further). Even if you discarded the generator completely and used a fuel cell, the efficiency would only approach 83%.

Getting back half of the power needed to create the hydrogen - even less after drying and compression - means this doesn't run on pee. It runs on the massive amount of power needed to create, process and compress the hydrogen.

Can you see how that works?


I just want to point out that this applies to water and not urine my friend.

As someone here pointed out, there is the ammonia content in urine, for one, but there is also the lower PH of urine (making it acidic) that needs to be considered.

Consider a standard Lead Acid battery like in your truck or car: If the cell is dead as a doornail, the PH of the solution inside will be nearly neutral and technically is mostly water at this point - in fact, you condition and service these batteries by adding PH neutral water to them. However, when you charge the battery, the PH of the solution changes and becomes highly acidic again (lower on PH scale) once it has regained it's charge. So a charged battery has acid, a dead battery has water.

Now, let's say you didn't have a way to charge your dead battery because you lack a source of electricity: Just drain out the neutral water from the battery and refill it with acid. using a weak acid in Lemon Juice or straight up Hydrochloric acid in toilet bowl cleaner or even Sulphuric Acid in drain clog remover. Without any electricity or "energy input" you'll be pulling a decent amount of juice from this previously dead cell.

This generator in the video is most likely working from the same principles of this electrochemical process. It's not that anyone is altering the laws of physics to produce the hydrogen output (obviously, because this same device won't work with just water), but they are instead conforming to the laws by using a solution already containing potential energy instead. It just so happens that Urine has both the energy and the hydrogen for the process; the Urine is the battery.

It's actually brilliant.


Not to be a self-bumper here, but I just had a thought about this:

Commercial businesses spend a huge amount of money to electricity to their customers. They also spend a great deal of money providing the facilities to take waste away from their customers, by providing public washrooms. So, if you fed all of your urinals into a system like this you could recover some of your overall costs by piping your Urine Electricity back into your bussiness' lighting or heating system. Although I would possibly ditch the generator and redesign the system to work more like an actual battery and directly harvest the electricity from it.

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PostMon Nov 12, 2012 4:23 am » by Cia212


Mr.Richardson wrote:
Cia212 wrote:
So, compression is still a HUGE issue since additional electricity has to be applied to expand the gas under increasingly higher pressures. Then, burning the hydrogen in the generator will only be ~40-60% efficient which means you're only getting half of the energy back upon burning (not counting the needed compression which hurts you even further). Even if you discarded the generator completely and used a fuel cell, the efficiency would only approach 83%.

Getting back half of the power needed to create the hydrogen - even less after drying and compression - means this doesn't run on pee. It runs on the massive amount of power needed to create, process and compress the hydrogen.

Can you see how that works?


I just want to point out that this applies to water and not urine my friend.

As someone here pointed out, there is the ammonia content in urine, for one, but there is also the lower PH of urine (making it acidic) that needs to be considered.


Yes, it's ammonia, but the concept is the same - and the person who invented the process - Gerardine Botte - has said that this isn't a viable electrical power generating solution since the treatment and cracking of urine requires power and chemicals that are expensive.

That's why she says the process is useful for making waste treatment more efficient, since you're already using some of the chemicals to treat the sewage anyway.

“It is a high school project, so don’t take it [so seriously],” Botte said, adding that the student's work is "empowering" and suggested they work with an engineer to understand the technology and its appropriate applications.

For Botte, the technology is most practical as a way to make the wastewater treatment process more energy efficient.

All wastewater treatment plants consume energy, she explained. Since urea is already being collected by such facilities, Botte says it makes sense to extract hydrogen from it. This in turn can be used to generate electricity, thus reducing the amount of outside energy required to run the wastewater treatment process.

“You will never get more energy out than you put in because you are treating urea … but it is a unique and elegant way to treat urine waste, which will allow you to co-generate electricity,” she said.


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