Pee Powered Generator

Conspirator
User avatar
Posts: 2843
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:47 am

PostSun Nov 11, 2012 5:54 am » by Opalserpent


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... paign=1490


Image

Below excerpt from dailymail.com

According to the Maker Faire blog, urine is put into an electrolytic cell, which cracks the urea into nitrogen, water, and hydrogen. The hydrogen goes into a water filter for purification, which then gets pushed into the gas cylinder.
The gas cylinder pushes hydrogen into a cylinder of liquid borax, which is used to remove the moisture from the hydrogen gas. This purified hydrogen gas is pushed into the generator, and one litre of urine provides six hours of electricity.
Co-founder of the two-day event, Erik Hersman, said the event showcased practical innovation.
The Maker Faire blog described the generator as 'possibly one of the more unexpected products' at the event.
While the system does have one-way valves for safety, more robust measures may be needed before it can be sold widely.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z2BsmdA3hY
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Live by the Terror, Die by the Terror.

Conspirator
Posts: 2312
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:34 pm

PostSun Nov 11, 2012 10:00 am » by Cia212


Cool idea, except for the cracking and compressing the Hydrogen part.

Super Moderator
User avatar
Posts: 18882
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:22 pm
Location: In your grill

PostSun Nov 11, 2012 10:04 am » by Slith


Cia212 wrote:Cool idea, except for the cracking and compressing the Hydrogen part.

Could you elaborate on that?
Image

Canubis wrote:
i consume more hard liquor a night then all dtv together...

yet i am so god dam smart....and own this shit in my world..

Conspirator
Posts: 2312
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:34 pm

PostSun Nov 11, 2012 10:17 am » by Cia212


dlslith wrote:
Cia212 wrote:Cool idea, except for the cracking and compressing the Hydrogen part.

Could you elaborate on that?

It takes more power to crack the urine and compress the hydrogen than can be extracted with the generator. So the urine is just a novelty, this is simply a generator made in China and adapted to run on hydrogen.

Super Moderator
User avatar
Posts: 18882
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:22 pm
Location: In your grill

PostSun Nov 11, 2012 10:34 am » by Slith


Cia212 wrote:
dlslith wrote:
Cia212 wrote:Cool idea, except for the cracking and compressing the Hydrogen part.

Could you elaborate on that?

It takes more power to crack the urine and compress the hydrogen than can be extracted with the generator. So the urine is just a novelty, this is simply a generator made in China and adapted to run on hydrogen.

:flop: I was just curious
Image

Canubis wrote:
i consume more hard liquor a night then all dtv together...

yet i am so god dam smart....and own this shit in my world..

Conspirator
User avatar
Posts: 3141
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:10 pm
Location: Neutral Zone

PostSun Nov 11, 2012 12:27 pm » by Svaha


Cia212 wrote:
dlslith wrote:
Cia212 wrote:Cool idea, except for the cracking and compressing the Hydrogen part.

Could you elaborate on that?

It takes more power to crack the urine and compress the hydrogen than can be extracted with the generator. So the urine is just a novelty, this is simply a generator made in China and adapted to run on hydrogen.


Can you proof that with calculations?

I don't think they use a compressor to compress hydrogen, only the pressure of hydrogen (gas) that is formed and that the power used for the electrolyse is very small compared to the caloric? value of hydrogen.
Follow your bliss(ters) - Joseph Campbell

Conspirator
Posts: 2312
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:34 pm

PostSun Nov 11, 2012 3:24 pm » by Cia212


"Proof" that huh?

Sure. This is the process of electrolysis - from Georgia State University http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/thermo/electrol.html
Electrolysis of Water
By providing energy from a battery, water (H2O) can be dissociated into the diatomic molecules of hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (O2). This process is a good example of the the application of the four thermodynamic potentials.


The electrolysis of one mole of water produces a mole of hydrogen gas and a half-mole of oxygen gas in their normal diatomic forms. A detailed analysis of the process makes use of the thermodyamic potentials and the first law of thermodynamics. This process is presumed to be at 298K and one atmosphere pressure, and the relevant values are taken from a table of thermodynamic properties.

Quantity H2O H2 0.5 O2 Change
Enthalpy -285.83 kJ 0 0 ΔH = 285.83 kJ
Entropy 69.91 J/K 130.68 J/K 0.5 x 205.14 J/K TΔS = 48.7 kJ

The process must provide the energy for the dissociation plus the energy to expand the produced gases. Both of those are included in the change in enthalpy included in the table above. At temperature 298K and one atmosphere pressure, the system work is

W = PΔV = (101.3 x 103 Pa)(1.5 moles)(22.4 x 10-3 m3/mol)(298K/273K) = 3715 J
Since the enthalpy H= U+PV, the change in internal energy U is then

ΔU = ΔH - PΔV = 285.83 kJ - 3.72 kJ = 282.1 kJ
This change in internal energy must be accompanied by the expansion of the gases produced, so the change in enthalpy represents the necessary energy to accomplish the electrolysis. However, it is not necessary to put in this whole amount in the form of electrical energy. Since the entropy increases in the process of dissociation, the amount TΔS can be provided from the environment at temperature T. The amount which must be supplied by the battery is actually the change in the Gibbs free energy:

ΔG = ΔH - TΔS = 285.83 kJ - 48.7 kJ = 237.1 kJ
Since the electrolysis process results in an increase in entropy, the environment "helps" the process by contributing the amount TΔS.


So, compression is still a HUGE issue since additional electricity has to be applied to expand the gas under increasingly higher pressures. Then, burning the hydrogen in the generator will only be ~40-60% efficient which means you're only getting half of the energy back upon burning (not counting the needed compression which hurts you even further). Even if you discarded the generator completely and used a fuel cell, the efficiency would only approach 83%.

Getting back half of the power needed to create the hydrogen - even less after drying and compression - means this doesn't run on pee. It runs on the massive amount of power needed to create, process and compress the hydrogen.

Can you see how that works?

Conspirator
Posts: 1050
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:39 pm

PostSun Nov 11, 2012 5:35 pm » by Blotto


Cia212 , just likes speaking horse shit, he hasn't got a clue what hes talking about, and just likes reading and quoting off of white papers , he's worse than one of them Indian cold callers that ring you up trying to sell you something. i think he just likes pissing on peoples parades, pun intended.

Super Moderator
User avatar
Posts: 18882
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:22 pm
Location: In your grill

PostSun Nov 11, 2012 5:41 pm » by Slith


Blotto wrote:Cia212 , just likes speaking horse shit, he hasn't got a clue what hes talking about, and just likes reading and quoting off of white papers , he's worse than one of them Indian cold callers that ring you up trying to sell you something. i think he just likes pissing on peoples parades, pun intended.


I asked for him to explain it. He did, but thru someone else's quotes

:think:

I could have done the same, and I know nothing aboot it
Image

Canubis wrote:
i consume more hard liquor a night then all dtv together...

yet i am so god dam smart....and own this shit in my world..

Conspirator
User avatar
Posts: 3141
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:10 pm
Location: Neutral Zone

PostSun Nov 11, 2012 10:22 pm » by Svaha


Cia212 wrote:"Proof" that huh?

Sure. This is the process of electrolysis - from Georgia State University http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/thermo/electrol.html
Electrolysis of Water
By providing energy from a battery, water (H2O) can be dissociated into the diatomic molecules of hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (O2). This process is a good example of the the application of the four thermodynamic potentials.


The electrolysis of one mole of water produces a mole of hydrogen gas and a half-mole of oxygen gas in their normal diatomic forms. A detailed analysis of the process makes use of the thermodyamic potentials and the first law of thermodynamics. This process is presumed to be at 298K and one atmosphere pressure, and the relevant values are taken from a table of thermodynamic properties.

Quantity H2O H2 0.5 O2 Change
Enthalpy -285.83 kJ 0 0 ΔH = 285.83 kJ
Entropy 69.91 J/K 130.68 J/K 0.5 x 205.14 J/K TΔS = 48.7 kJ

The process must provide the energy for the dissociation plus the energy to expand the produced gases. Both of those are included in the change in enthalpy included in the table above. At temperature 298K and one atmosphere pressure, the system work is

W = PΔV = (101.3 x 103 Pa)(1.5 moles)(22.4 x 10-3 m3/mol)(298K/273K) = 3715 J
Since the enthalpy H= U+PV, the change in internal energy U is then

ΔU = ΔH - PΔV = 285.83 kJ - 3.72 kJ = 282.1 kJ
This change in internal energy must be accompanied by the expansion of the gases produced, so the change in enthalpy represents the necessary energy to accomplish the electrolysis. However, it is not necessary to put in this whole amount in the form of electrical energy. Since the entropy increases in the process of dissociation, the amount TΔS can be provided from the environment at temperature T. The amount which must be supplied by the battery is actually the change in the Gibbs free energy:

ΔG = ΔH - TΔS = 285.83 kJ - 48.7 kJ = 237.1 kJ
Since the electrolysis process results in an increase in entropy, the environment "helps" the process by contributing the amount TΔS.


So, compression is still a HUGE issue since additional electricity has to be applied to expand the gas under increasingly higher pressures. Then, burning the hydrogen in the generator will only be ~40-60% efficient which means you're only getting half of the energy back upon burning (not counting the needed compression which hurts you even further). Even if you discarded the generator completely and used a fuel cell, the efficiency would only approach 83%.

Getting back half of the power needed to create the hydrogen - even less after drying and compression - means this doesn't run on pee. It runs on the massive amount of power needed to create, process and compress the hydrogen.

Can you see how that works?


That's electrolyse for water, but that's not the case here, it's the ammonia (nh3) in the pee that's used and put through a fuel cel.

We produce loads and loads of ammonia that goes to waist, it could be a clean energy source: http://nh3fuelassociation.org/introduction/

So, imo you are not right about this one.
Follow your bliss(ters) - Joseph Campbell


Next

  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post
Visit Disclose.tv on Facebook