Crop Formations...Why not set up a camera?

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Expand view Topic review: Crop Formations...Why not set up a camera?

Re: Crop Formations...Why not set up a camera?

Post by Iwanci » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:23 am

Cog, no doubt that an experience (any experience) that lends itself to ones personal belief has a very powerful and profound effect on the individual. This is due to the association we place with the event and the effect is amplified if in fact it lends itself to the belief rather than opposing it.

I am in no way suggesting that what you experienced is anything other than what you believe you experienced, I wasn't there afterall. I am however suggesting that there may have been alternative explanations to the events.

The camera malfunctioning I cannot explain, however, the effect of this malfunction on your thought process was probably apmplified by the nature of the experience. You did visit a crop circle, you did already have a preconception of what you were likely to experience and so your mind more than likely made the connection, in fact it may have magnified the results for you. Had you, for example, been an unwitting participant in this event, ie, had you been simply walking through a field without expectation and without preconception (totally oblivious) to what you were to encounter, the camera malfunction may not have registered in your mind as pronounced as it did, ie, you may have simply seen it as a glitch, which in fact it may have been.

I find stories from personal experience to be extremely valid, proof or no proof. I place great significance on stories told first hand by those who had the experience. Your story facinates me mate.

Yet again, I wasn't there my friend so cannot and do not wish to deny what you experienced, if, after YOU analyse your own experience without bias, you believe strongly in what you saw etc, then I will be compelled to accept your story. It is not for me nor anyone else to accept or reject your experience.

Now the aliens, what do we really know about their knowledge? what do we know about what they know of us, our communication style, our political or religious complexity, our society, our mentality etc? Truth is we do not know what we do not know. To say that they are being careful in the way the communicate with us is fanciful at best. To say they are complex beings who are carefully and slowly passing on messages so as to not upset the apple cart on earth is likewise fanicful. To state anything as fact on a topic where no one truly knows anything is indeed crazy talk. I appreciate this is not what you are saying.

The fact for me remains that no one (including me) knows anything about aliens, nor do we know if they actually even exist. Everything we believe is based purely on conjecture and speculation and wishful thinking. Having said that, how nice would it be if it were true? Keeping in mind that with so many different thoughts on the topic, they can't all be correct. So your crazy assed ideas are just as valid as my crazy assed ideas.

On another note, I like your style Cog.


Re: Crop Formations...Why not set up a camera?

Post by Cognoscenti » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:22 pm

@iwanci: A few points to clarify our discussion/debate:
1) I recognize that testimony of personal experience which cannot be objectified by a third party is the weakest form of evidence. That is why I have never til now in all my CC threads described my personal experiences. But if you saw a disc shaped craft in broad daylight, hovering silently and stationary 50 feet over your head in broad daylight, then watched it silently zoom to the horizon in 2 seconds you would have no evidence to provide anyone else of the truth of your experience, but I guarantee the experience would change you.
2) The failure of my camera in a CC was not a personal physiological experience. Videos do exist of malfunctioning of electronic equipment in CCs such as fluctuating altitude readings, EMF readings, GPS readings, electronic compass readings, etc confined to the area within crop circles. I am sure you are aware that these kind of reports are common and frequent from visitors to genuine crop circles, and are obviously anomalous.
3) I think you misunderstand my comment on the nature of the behavior of an advanced non-human intelligence. I believe they DO understand human thought and psychology, but the way they react, respond and interact with us cannot necessarily be in a mannner that we as humans would think or act.

Re: Crop Formations...Why not set up a camera?

Post by Iwanci » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:32 am

Warngen, your contributions are most welcome my friend and you should post more often.

Cog, I hear whatr you are saying mate, however we need to draw the line in the sand on some things. Seems to me that you may be a little biased in your statements (not meaning any disrespect as I too may seem biased due to me beliefs). If we are analysing any situation which we do not understand we must set some parameters.
It is not right for example to put into question that one investigator obtains their information from secondary sources and state that this as being less valid than the ‘other’ sides research which has likewise been gathered from secondary sources.

I take your points on your own personal experiences my friend, and whilst I was not there to witness what you experienced I cannot provide anything of real value here other than to say that I think there are other factors which may explain some of what you experienced. It is well documented that many people experience sensations that they cannot explain or ‘feelings’ that are out of the ordinary when they ‘believe’ that something paranormal is being experienced, for example some people are participate in séances or visit haunted houses and they experience very strange sensations which they swear is a result of the paranormal, they continue to think this way even after they are made aware that it was a set experiment and there was nothing paranormal.. my point is that you can lead yourself to conclusions, a placebo effect of sorts. Not suggesting this is what happened to you, but without knowing the full situation, difficult for any outsider to simply believe there was anything other than ‘normal’ reactions at play.

Also, you state that the ‘aliens’ cannot be expected to think like us humans think, and yet you believe that they have the foresight to understand the complexity and delicacy of their interaction with us, and so they are deliberately cryptic in their messages so as to not cause our belief system into total upheaval? So in one sentence they do not know how we think and in another they implicitly understand the delicate nature of our thought processes? Nope, this is an each way bet my friend, either they don’t understand us or they do. You must take a stance in an argument and build you case in that direction, unless of course you are not totally convinced either way and are open enough to state that you don’t truly know and so you keep an open mind to the endless possibilities.

Great discussions my friends and the true meaning of DTV = open, honest, tolerance and the occasional heated opinions.

Re: Crop Formations...Why not set up a camera?

Post by Warngen » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:53 am

Great posts you guys! :clapper: :mrgreen: :flop:

Re: Crop Formations...Why not set up a camera?

Post by Daemonfoe » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:13 pm

To jump to one side of the fence based on this question of "Why aren't we trying to film it?" takes just as much gullibility as it does to jump to one side of the fence for any other reason.

It is a good question. Why aren't more people trying to film it? You can't just assume, "because everyone knows it's fake." How is does one logically lead to the other? They don't connect that easily.

At this point in the debate/investigation, I don't care if they are man made, aliens like to draw graffiti in crops, or they are a byproduct or a symptom of some other phenomenon that doesn't make up such a simple answer.

What I want to know is where the radiation comes from in the crops, and how do they bend at the nodes. Remove all the obvious man made formations and take what's left, then explain those. Add this question to the list of unknowns. Why aren't people trying to film it? What exactly is stopping them? We know for sure there are many people who would willing film these fields day and night, but what is the real reason they aren't doing it? It's not just as simple as, "because everyone knows it's all fake." If everyone knows it's fake, then why does this debate continue? Obviously nothing could be further from the truth.

Re: Crop Formations...Why not set up a camera?

Post by Cognoscenti » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:43 pm

@iwanci: Good of you to maintain an open mind. As I said in a previous post I know some people will not believe in the paranormality of crop circles until or unless they were to see one go down in front of their very eyes through some unseen force. I understand that. However, most of what you know or believe is not based on your own personal experience, but from an examination of the accumulated evidence, and facts that you have been taught. Consider a jury of twelve presiding over a murder trial. Not one of those individuals actually was a witness to the crime, but they have heard eyewitness testimony, seen the DNA evidence of the blood on the knife, etc. Remember the list of irrefutable facts I posted earlier. Remember, too, that if there is an advanced nonhuman intelligence trying to communicate with us, they cannot be expected to think and do things as humans do. They will be aware of our hostile potential, and the potential for a major shock to the psychology of the majority of humanity if they make their presence known in an undeniable visitation. Maybe they know that the best way to prepare other intelligent life for the truth of their existence is through a gradual process such as the crop circles which lead to human investigation , personal discovery, and debates such as this. So, I took such a personal journey to Wiltshire in the summers of 2007 and 2009. I had threee very unusual experiences which added to my conviction that there is "something strange " going on not explainable by the human-made crop circles. First , I had camera failure in a CC with freshly charged batteries in my camera, no function in CC, worked fine outside CC. Second, I photographed anomalous lights shooting out of a formation in daytime conditions. Third, I experienced some very strange physical sensations in a couple different CCs. In one, all my teeth began to throb painfully, an effect that lasted almost an hour after leaving the formation, In another case I felt strangley vertiginous...I am extermely healthy, and take no medications. Then, too there was seeing on the ground crop lying in multiple layers and in different directions, and the finding of multiple bent and elongated nodes confined to the CC, and twisted bundles of wheat that seemed set as if they were spaghetti which had cooled and hardened into the new postion. I could not reprodeuce that effect by twisting bundles of wheat. They would not hold their new position as if glued together. Being on the ground and seeing the huge expanse of some formations across undulating ground making any line of sight measurements impossible simply has to be experienced.

Re: Crop Formations...Why not set up a camera?

Post by Warngen » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:30 am

Disclaimer: I am in no way trying to be an asshole to anyone. I just state my opinion and whats on my mind. Nothing personal.

I understand where you are coming from. I myself don't care whether someone believes in something or not. It is not my position to make someone believe something, regardless of the mound of information I may show them. My point was that even if someone showed you what you wanted to see, it is ultimately YOUR decision to believe or not. Someone cannot go into your brain, send pulses throughout your mind and MAKE you decide one way or another, no matter how much 'evidence' one might show you. (Unless you are subject to mind control) Example, I can hold a real 10 dollar bill in someones face and tell them, 'this is a real 10 dollar bill', but it is ultimately up to that person to determine, on their own, whether or not it is a real $10 bill or not. Hence my sig, "You come to your own conclusions based on your own experience."

That's all I was saying.

P.S. I am perhaps the most lurking lurker in this whole community. :alien: As you can see, I have been a member since '08 and I've only posted a little over 200 posts since then. I like to read more than type, but every so often I will. I usually tend to keep my mouth shut, or more appropriately, keep my fingers to myself.


Re: Crop Formations...Why not set up a camera?

Post by Iwanci » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:06 am

No my friend, I know (at least as much as anyone else) that I am right on this subject. Throwing more 'questionable' information does not change my mind, on the contrary, it only serves to show me that the other side of the debate has even less of a clue than I do.

Now, if someone could tale me with them and together we witnessed the incredible, eg, I saw with my own eyes that a CC was formed in less than minute (as some believe), then for me that would satisfy me. However, I know that no one can show me this, so I ask for irrefutable proof that these CC's are NOT man made. It is NOT ok to state that we do not know and as a result there is something other than human intervention. It is NOT right to say, we do not know and hence it must be an alien or paranormal activity. It is NOT right to say, we can't answer the question so there is no human involvement.

Man is capable of great deceipt, we all know this to be true, so why not use this as a starting point when the facts are not so determinable? Why do we always seek to explain things we don't understand as being of alien, godly or paranormal origin? Is this not how religion begun? People with no understanding for their time attributing all that was unknown and good unto a god and all that was unkown and bad onto a devil or vengeful god? Do we not look back at our ancestors in history and think 'how could they believe in that', it is so obvious to us?

My point, show me the proof I require to believe and I will believe. The burden of proof is always on the person making the claim. In this case, believe anything you want no issue, but don't expect others to believe based purely on your interpretation, rather, show someone your proof and you need not worry about doing any convincing. Until the time comes where proof shows us the right answer either way, we must go with the balance of probablity, in this case it is overwhelmingly on human intervention.

This is not to say that we should stop asking and stop researching, on the contrary, let he/she who thinks otherwise undertake all the research they need to prove their theory, and then once proven, come out and bask in the glory of righteousness. I will be there cheering you on, Kudos to you if you can prove this one.

For reference, no one from the opposite side has even come close to taking a horse to water, all they have really done is made mere suggestions... take me to the water (show me the proof), and I will drink (I will change my mind), suggest I drink and I will only consider the options.


Re: Crop Formations...Why not set up a camera?

Post by Warngen » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:36 am

Iwanci wrote:so please PLEASE P L E A S E.... prove me wrong.



You have to prove yourself wrong. All anyone can do for you is show you information. It is your decision on what to believe, so the monkey is on your back.

Reminds me of the saying, "You can take the horse to the water but you cannot make him drink."


Re: Crop Formations...Why not set up a camera?

Post by Iwanci » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:53 am

Cog, perhaps, just maybe perhaps people do not 'splash' out money on UFO research and CC's because the ones with the money simply do not believe?? Imagine this for one second, if I had oodles of money, some of which I could freely use to further explore the possibility of alien existence and/or cc's, and in doing so I would go down in history as a pioneer, my name being seen in eons as the forefather of alien or paranormal discoveries via proof, why wouldn't I do it? The answer is that I, and anyone else (believer or not) would gladly spend the money for this imortal recognistion (aside from the obvious answering of one of mans most fundemental questions, are we alone). The only reason I can see as to why money isn't being thrown at this subject is only because it is NOT a worthwhile investment, either financially or morally, in other words, there is nothing of real value to gain in only proving that CC's are in fact man made, this is probably the only real conclusion that would ever be drawn, so why waste money for something so inconsiquential? On the other hand, if some (or a lot) of money coud prove the existence of alien involvement, trust me when I say there would be towers with cameras above evry field.

Also, you imply that these 'aliens' would likely not wnt to be identified or seen? So why would they waste their time with making these circles in the first place, do you think they are intergalactic grafiti artists and only come to earth to 'tag' out fields? I doubt it, any species deliberately trying to comunicate with another would go to great lengths to be recognised. Imagine it was you, would you simply go somewhere, draw a picture and disappear? would that bring you closer or further from contact do you think?

On a side, honestly, the arguments for and against any of these so called 'paranormal' activities are skewed either way. On this subject the overwhelming concensus is man made involvement, even so however, I am willing to be open minded and think.. 'what if?'... however, I need more than an internet article to make me a convert sorry, I need some element of undeniablilty.. proof. Not proof for the negative, proof for the positive. Proof does not come in the form of unanswered questions either, proof comes by answering questions and not asking them.

So, my mind is 80/20 towards human involvement...

As mentioned in other posts, the 'proof' of alien involvement would make me eat humble pie, but from a greater aspect would vindicate me in so many other ways, ie, I would like nothing more than to be wrong on this subject, I stand to gain so much more by being wrong than being right...

so please PLEASE P L E A S E.... prove me wrong.