My daughter deserved to die for falling in love

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Expand view Topic review: My daughter deserved to die for falling in love

Re: My daughter deserved to die for falling in love

Post by Fatdogmendoza » Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:39 am

UPDATE
Surprise surprise

Nearly 3,000 so-called "honour" attacks took place in the UK last year, according to new research.

Figures obtained by the Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organisation (Ikwro) showed at least 2,823 incidents of "honour-based" violence took place, with the highest number recorded in London.

The charity said the statistics do not give the full picture of the levels of "honour" violence in the UK , but are the best national estimate so far.

"'Honour' attacks are punishments usually carried out on women who have been accused of bringing shame on their family and in the past have included abductions, mutilations, beatings and murder," the report said.

"The number of incidents is significant, particularly when we consider the high levels of abuse that victims suffer before they seek help."

The data, taken from from 39 out of 52 UK forces, was released following a freedom of information request by Ikwro. The group estimates there may have been around 500 other incidents in the 13 forces areas that did not provide figures.

In the 12 force areas that could also provide statistics for 2009 there was a 47% increase in incidents year-on-year.

In London incidents rose from 235 to 495, and in Greater Manchester from 105 to 189.

Ikrwo told The Guardian newspaper the increase was probably due to improved police awarenes and more victims coming forward after coverage of high-profile prosecutions.

In 2006, Banaz Mahmod, from Mitcham, south London, was strangled on the orders of her father and uncle because they thought her boyfriend was unsuitable.

Cousins Mohammed Saleh Ali and Omar Hussain, both 28, were jailed last year for a minimum of 22 and 21 years respectively for the "honour killing" of the 20-year-old Iraqi Kurd.

The victim's father Mahmod Mahmod and uncle Ari Mahmod were jailed for life at
the Old Bailey in 2007.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/nearly-3-000-h ... 20242.html

Re: My daughter deserved to die for falling in love

Post by Faustian » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:58 pm

sentientseed wrote:Although genetics is a factor, the point I was making didn't necessitate the need to use it. One has a choice regardless and one should not use their genetic make up as a scapegoat for their behavior.

Sometimes we need to see a reflection to learn and grow.

The part I highlighted in red is not necessarily true. I was that child who was beat. My genetics of my family lean toward aggression in both the males and females on my mother's side and some on my father's side. I "chose" not to be like that. I could very well have been like that. I have not been genetically tested for any specific genes so all my family's behaviors may very well have been environmental and learned behavior...but I do know quite well what excessive adrenalin feels like. I just recognize what my make up is and work with it. Again, regardless, a person has a choice.

You can say we are naturally altruistic. I can say we are naturally selfish. Society has come closer to showing the latter than the prior. We could get by without religion but that doesn't change the fact that it can be a beneficial tool. We could do without Philosophy, Psychology and a host of other mental tools as well. It would no more be a Utopia than it is now. People will still behave badly. If dropping religion entirely works for one individual, it doesn't mean it will work for everyone in the same manner. Each life is individualized physically and mentally. There is no cookie cutter method. It appears at times that society fails because individuals fail. It seems we always try to correct society as a whole more so than working on our individual selves. And make no mistake about it, it is a Great Work on the self and not an easy task.

If you have a plan that works to rid society of religion without conflict or bringing out the bad nature in people, I would love to read it. It is easy to just say...we don't need it...the end.


Then you missed my point. I was saying you have no choice in either environment or genetics, two things that shape who you are, and therefore you have no choice in your choices.

I was talking about the MAO-A gene in particular, there are literally thousands of genes currently being studied which lead to aggression/violence, all with their own nuances and ways of interacting with environment. Even diet can 'turn off' a gene (I'm oversimplifying here). These interactions are also so complex it would be very difficult to map out your life and say 'here's where you took a wrong turning'. Along the way you have picked up an attitude of 'recognising what my make up is and working with it', something you did not choose to pick up, but did out of happy accident. Yes a person has a choice, but what goes into a decision? Primarily attitudes, beliefs, personality, genetic predispositions to making, say, riskier choices, the list goes on of factors out of your control that go into your decision making. Reward, punishment, responsibility, these are all human constructs.

Of course we are naturally selfish, religion reflects that side of us as well. But as a system, religion has not been successful in dealing with that adequately, in fact it has heightened that side of us, and we all know the results of that. Beneficial for what? Take away religion and we'll still have good people doing charitable work, as well as murderers. What I'm saying is that religion isn't so much a tool for doing good things, as you seem to think, but a channel, and it has been the conventional (but not the only) channel for charitable work and other good deeds for a very long time. But religion IS currently being used as tool, whether unwittingly or not, for violence, aggression, misogyny, etc etc. These will not go away without religion, but we can never hope to evolve as a society to slowly rid ourselves of these things by still having religion. It has stunted our growth, and all current societies which are slowly growing out of religion have benefited deeply, with quality of life, especially for women, much greater than that of deeply religious societies.

Interesting viewpoint, but this is not an exercise in treating individuals by making a better society, but more management of the undesirable aspects of humanity, which religion is clearly failing at. And anyway, what are you saying? That some people have to believe in the imaginings of ancient civilisations to reach their full potential as human beings? Devils, angels and big men in the sky have no relation to moral behaviour, and if you're saying we should scare and traumatise children into thinking they'll burn for eternity for doing something human which they can't help, then I'd rather not have religion as a 'method' for certain individuals.

I don't need to have a great plan or solution to criticise the current state of affairs. You don't need to be a great chef to decide whether something tastes good or bad, and frankly, religion tastes rotten.

Re: My daughter deserved to die for falling in love

Post by Sentientseed » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:38 pm

Ah, but you haven't taken into account genetics, which interacts with environment. The children have different predispositions in their personalities, beliefs and attitudes which is why the outcomes of their abuse are different. Somebody with the MAO-A gene (nicknamed the "warrior" gene) is way more likely to respond to child abuse negatively, as they have aggressive tendencies and are more likely to become murderers/violent offenders. At the same time having MAO-A will not necessarily make you a murderer in later life, as long as you have a relatively good childhood and stable life, sadly two things you cannot choose to have.

Religion, an environmental factor, when interacted with other environmental factors and genetic predispositions, is deadly.

You're also implying that religion is useful. All 'useful' aspects of religion are just reflections of human nature which has existed before religion (i.e. before a child is made to believe in a religion and before religion developed amongst early humans). We are naturally altruistic, naturally turned off by 'bad' deeds (unless you're born with the defective brain of a psychopath, and other such situations). Religion is just the middle man, we don't need it.


Although genetics is a factor, the point I was making didn't necessitate the need to use it. One has a choice regardless and one should not use their genetic make up as a scapegoat for their behavior.

Sometimes we need to see a reflection to learn and grow.

The part I highlighted in red is not necessarily true. I was that child who was beat. My genetics of my family lean toward aggression in both the males and females on my mother's side and some on my father's side. I "chose" not to be like that. I could very well have been like that. I have not been genetically tested for any specific genes so all my family's behaviors may very well have been environmental and learned behavior...but I do know quite well what excessive adrenalin feels like. I just recognize what my make up is and work with it. Again, regardless, a person has a choice.

You can say we are naturally altruistic. I can say we are naturally selfish. Society has come closer to showing the latter than the prior. We could get by without religion but that doesn't change the fact that it can be a beneficial tool. We could do without Philosophy, Psychology and a host of other mental tools as well. It would no more be a Utopia than it is now. People will still behave badly. If dropping religion entirely works for one individual, it doesn't mean it will work for everyone in the same manner. Each life is individualized physically and mentally. There is no cookie cutter method. It appears at times that society fails because individuals fail. It seems we always try to correct society as a whole more so than working on our individual selves. And make no mistake about it, it is a Great Work on the self and not an easy task.

If you have a plan that works to rid society of religion without conflict or bringing out the bad nature in people, I would love to read it. It is easy to just say...we don't need it...the end.

Re: My daughter deserved to die for falling in love

Post by Fatdogmendoza » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:50 pm

richc wrote:
kolgoroth wrote:The majority of religions preach peace and love between fellow man, that is as long as the other man believes the same way you do.


I don't know much about any religion but that statement says it all to me...

Its all good as long as you are a man..

It probably can't always be put down to religion though.
You tend to follow the rules of society as you grow up and pass them down to your kids.

If your society from one generation to the next accepts that men have all the rights and women have very few then the same problem will automatically fall into place every time.

Just recently i watched a large group of women demonstrating somewhere in the middle east for voting rights.

They need to do that more. Change the old ways and bring them into the 21st century.

If they are not allowed to do so because of religious law or because religious elders forbid it then yes it has everything to do with religion.

If religious law or the elders do allow it but it doesn't happen then it is because society has just accepted the way things are and have made no real attempts to change it.

Am i even on topic now.? Sorry....

RIK


:flop: No you are not off topic... You are right the key word is man And that word is the basis for almost all religion particularly the main ones... Society is a large part of what goes on in ordewr to keep women in place... However check out what is the powerhouse been particular societies cultures and it is man led man powered religion...We can beat around the bush as much as we like. and in the particular case of this thread it was a honour killing...The major religions are medieval at thier best and that is being kind because they actually hark back to a darker age of human existence...thousands not hundreds of years..

Re: My daughter deserved to die for falling in love

Post by Richc » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:44 pm

kolgoroth wrote:The majority of religions preach peace and love between fellow man, that is as long as the other man believes the same way you do.


I don't know much about any religion but that statement says it all to me...

Its all good as long as you are a man..

It probably can't always be put down to religion though.
You tend to follow the rules of society as you grow up and pass them down to your kids.

If your society from one generation to the next accepts that men have all the rights and women have very few then the same problem will automatically fall into place every time.

Just recently i watched a large group of women demonstrating somewhere in the middle east for voting rights.

They need to do that more. Change the old ways and bring them into the 21st century.

If they are not allowed to do so because of religious law or because religious elders forbid it then yes it has everything to do with religion.

If religious law or the elders do allow it but it doesn't happen then it is because society has just accepted the way things are and have made no real attempts to change it.

Am i even on topic now.? Sorry....

RIK

Re: My daughter deserved to die for falling in love

Post by Faustian » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:55 pm

sentientseed wrote:
People aren't born sick fucks.

They are made, and religion is one of the tools used.


I would say they become which is a more self accountable way of seeing it. Made...can lay blame on someone or something else to a certain degree and to that same degree can retract from the individual accountability.


A stone is a tool. One could build with it or build something out of it....or one could bash someone's brains out with it. Should we rid ourselves of stone due to the latter?

Is a stone/rock/pebble an action? Is religion? Does either perform anything on its own? The action lies with the end user.

Two different people learn entirely different life lessons from the same type of experience.

Example...

One child can be beaten and abused during childhood and the grow up being a beater and abuser.

Another child equally beaten and abused may grow up to refuse to abuse as they know how badly it feels.

Despite the horrifying abuse both received...one used the experience to be a better person and one repeated the atrocity.

Now I realize this example is action based off negative action...but one should get the point.


Ah, but you haven't taken into account genetics, which interacts with environment. The children have different predispositions in their personalities, beliefs and attitudes which is why the outcomes of their abuse are different. Somebody with the MAO-A gene (nicknamed the "warrior" gene) is way more likely to respond to child abuse negatively, as they have aggressive tendencies and are more likely to become murderers/violent offenders. At the same time having MAO-A will not necessarily make you a murderer in later life, as long as you have a relatively good childhood and stable life, sadly two things you cannot choose to have.

Religion, an environmental factor, when interacted with other environmental factors and genetic predispositions, is deadly.

You're also implying that religion is useful. All 'useful' aspects of religion are just reflections of human nature which has existed before religion (i.e. before a child is made to believe in a religion and before religion developed amongst early humans). We are naturally altruistic, naturally turned off by 'bad' deeds (unless you're born with the defective brain of a psychopath, and other such situations). Religion is just the middle man, we don't need it.

Re: My daughter deserved to die for falling in love

Post by Temps13 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:23 am

nihlgeist you are a wanker

Re: My daughter deserved to die for falling in love

Post by Sentientseed » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:59 am

People aren't born sick fucks.

They are made, and religion is one of the tools used.


I would say they become which is a more self accountable way of seeing it. Made...can lay blame on someone or something else to a certain degree and to that same degree can retract from the individual accountability.


A stone is a tool. One could build with it or build something out of it....or one could bash someone's brains out with it. Should we rid ourselves of stone due to the latter?

Is a stone/rock/pebble an action? Is religion? Does either perform anything on its own? The action lies with the end user.

Two different people learn entirely different life lessons from the same type of experience.

Example...

One child can be beaten and abused during childhood and the grow up being a beater and abuser.

Another child equally beaten and abused may grow up to refuse to abuse as they know how badly it feels.

Despite the horrifying abuse both received...one used the experience to be a better person and one repeated the atrocity.

Now I realize this example is action based off negative action...but one should get the point.

Re: My daughter deserved to die for falling in love

Post by Faustian » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:04 am

People aren't born sick fucks.

They are made, and religion is one of the tools used.

Re: My daughter deserved to die for falling in love

Post by Sentientseed » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:20 am

Lets take responsibilty for our own actions


So mote it be! Amen! :)

Thus we should stop blaming religion. :)

We have done many great things as a species but Proven Masters we are not...

More like proven bumble fucks who occasionally shows signs of great potential. ;)

Although now my question you quoted looks like it was posed out of the blue since you quickly edited your post. :D lol :cheers:

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