Red Letter Bible Discussion

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PostSat Aug 28, 2010 4:35 am » by Spock


zaff4444 wrote:
spock wrote:BUMP!

BUMP?oh i get it,you bumping the thread :lol: coz its to do with bible,you bible thumpers :roll:



Read it Zaff. Give us your views.

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PostSat Aug 28, 2010 4:58 am » by sockpuppet


zaff4444 wrote: :lol: i know what you trying to do here :lol:



Actually, I would love to hear your personal views on topics around here. :)
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PostSat Aug 28, 2010 5:04 am » by sockpuppet


We're not preaching anything here (this thread), just discussing... The actual preaching is taking place all over the rest of DTV.
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PostSat Aug 28, 2010 5:07 am » by sockpuppet


zaff4444 wrote:
sockpuppet wrote:We're not preaching anything here (this thread), just discussing... The actual preaching is taking place all over the rest of DTV.

Yeh yeh :roll:


Seriously.... the point of the thread, is to read the red letters of the Bible and tell us what you think. And if you think that is preachy or bullshit, why don't you provide us with a different perspective? Show us we're the idiots you think we are. Tell us what it really means!
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PostSat Aug 28, 2010 5:17 am » by sockpuppet


zaff4444 wrote:Ok,how many versions of"the holy bible"is there or have been?



We're not discussing things in absolute detail, we are discussing the fundamental and overall message contained which is uniform throughout all the old manuscripts. Otherwise, no one cares which translation you are reading or which manuscripts those translations came from. Can't you discuss Kalila wa Dimna without worrying which manuscript the printer decided to publish? It's the same idea here. We aren't discussing fiqh.
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PostSat Aug 28, 2010 5:24 am » by sockpuppet


zaff4444 wrote:Coz its been doctored throughout the ages.



Of course it has, it has been doctored to fit different agendas. No one in their right mind would deny that! But it's the story- the message- the general idea- that we are commenting on. No one gives a shit here about that one iota.
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PostSat Aug 28, 2010 10:05 pm » by Spock


As good as it's gonna get.

Sanitized. Somewhat.

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PostSat Aug 28, 2010 10:44 pm » by Spock


Hereyago Teloc...

Before you read this, read the OP, then read this (which was on page 13).

lowsix wrote:Image

PART 2

Some religious thinkers, hold that god is unchangeable. Eternal. One faced.

Its a hugely popular objection mounted from the atheists for the inconsistency of God.
When they read the bible they see the Old testament calling for ritual, killings, eye for an eye, and then they read the words of jesus peace, love, forgiveness, acceptance, and an all loving god, they are filled with questions about the contradictions.

part of the reason i had people read the red letters first, is that we will address the source and cause of those contradictions, and rather than stating that yes, in fact, God has changed (or that we believe god has changed to reconcile the OT an NT) I will state that God has not changed, but mans perception of him, and their psychological processing of the God Process itself has changed..Therefore mans description of not only god, but the God process has changed as well…The god process is organic and is the reason The Bible is a Living Artifact.

Cultural needs are far different now than 4500 years ago.
It stands to reason the way we look at the world and observable events would change as well.

And that is likely true, were we as humans, to have any chance at all in actually finding it,
defining it or understanding it. Im sure, that in the end... the answer will make perfect sense.

God doesn't change, But what does change, is our understanding of it.
Currently the modern man has a Double Tiered Belief System…
and we are attempting to close ground with one another,
but it has not occurred yet, and may not for a long while, if ever….

One Tier of belief is the God that drives the Mechanics of the Universe. Mechanical god/
The Second is the Anthropomorphized articulation of that force. Conscious, Self aware God.
And just as man spent thousand of years acting on instinct and survival, as the circumstances changed,
so did his level of self awareness. And as societies Developed past the survival stages, the needs of those
societies changed as well. Getting out of the desert in one piece (goal of the OT)
is HUGELY different from an increasingly self aware mankind wondering what his true place among the elements really is..
His abilities to self perceive have become sharper in 4500 years…therefore his conceptions would evolve as well.

And they have. This evolution solves the inconsistencies between what we appear to read in the Old Testament warfare and Bloodshed, and the Peace love and light of the New.

This is an important and critical development that gains credibility by the fact that this change occurred worldwide..virtually overnight.
The ancient world had developed its laws and codifications and at that period were living in the Period of the Law.
Many systems succumbed to this change.
Many world leaders who spoke of the Service to Humanity, Self Sacrifice (buddha) and Self Control..all breached the stage within 500 years of each other globally, without influence from each other. Therefore it was a psychological NEED expressing itself, and the newer, personal spirituality religions developed to address THOSE needs.

We survived the Period of the law..Now comes the need to learn how to survive each other..

Once we became self aware, and aware of each other, then that system was replaced by a social system.
One of grace, forgiveness, samaritanism..All socially relevant behavioral adaptations.
Cidified by a handful of wiremen and prophets who gave voice to this need, and took up the archetypical mantle, to assume the Mana personallitythat was being called forth from the collective… IN other words, men that became gods, by irate of the powers of belief of those around them DUE to the seemingly shockingly relevant information they were providing. Without a second thought spent to the fact that societies CALLED FORTH these archetypes from the pleroma, into the womb of the REal…and were "born as gods"..of a Virgin Mother…

There was no seminal birth (in these cases), The Virgin signifies the CALLING FORTH from the womb of time without semen or egg…
It may mean bestowal of this godhood upon men..regardless, effect or net output is equal to their actual birth as actual gods born of actual virgins..

This is critical to our understanding of modern man in relation to the concept of god as a practical conversational term and what it means in the back of our minds. Most of us (when spiritual speaking) acknowledge these two semi separate columns. Its just that traditional theology hasnt found its place in the cosmos yet.

But the fact that it exists, means it is looking for one.
which you'll find is a huge clue in and of itself.
MAn is seeking to tie himself to the cosmos beyond being a meaningless atom within it.
So that we do not lose hope, and so that we can assign meaning to our existence.

We are limited in our viewpoint. Our vantage point is crippled, by so many things, least of all the language in which to even place the description. Im sure it will include a very long math problem of some elegant sort.

If i give myself an analogy to chew on to describe our search for God and His/It's meaning, i could say there is a thick, Felt bag, that contains a number of wooden geometric shapes. MAde of several different materials. Wood, metal of various sorts, stone..etc….

And the goal, is to figure out what is in the bag without opening it.

The task is to describe what is in the bag to the best of your ability, and to catalogue your findings, guesses, hypothesis, or concrete findings, all made without actually peering inside. Many generations of people will participate.

Cant be opened for exactly 4500 years. The bag, must remain sealed.
But for whatever reason (satisfy yourself with one) this process of guessing must take place over years, hundreds, and eventually thousands, until you reach a target time period of study of 4500 years.

The catalogue process would have begun in 1800BC…and continue generation after generation, up until 2010. All resources can be brought to bear, to figure out what is inside the bag, except for opening it..it can be tested, weighed, measured..etc..with whatever technology is available at the time.

Now, compare the notes in the margins of the 1800bc catalogue, and the one dated 2010.

Wouldn't you say, that even if advances in methods were slow, that our descriptive abilities would be far greater, and more far reaching, and probing. Scans, and density measurements, and other tests today could much more accurately tell us what the bag contains. Even people not working directly with the bag itself might find clues in the catalogue descriptions..philosopher types perhaps.

Conversely..4500 years ago, the best and brightest minds were studying almost EXACTLY the same night sky our astronomers are looking at today.

What has changed is not the night sky, But our abilities to perceive it better.

our perceptual abilities change over historical time..Technology is just the benchmark curve…, and this allows us to have a FAR more advanced understanding if not of god, then SURELY of the psychological factors that influenced the brain that PERCEIVES god.but our abilities of perception.

We are beginning to see the night sky more clearly.
(now this applies to a small percentage of intellectual Theologists)

See what I've done…vie saved myself a shit ton of archeological work.
In one fell swoop….Ive tossed out the entire library of Historical Objectionists as irrelevant.
They aren't needed. And what 's worse, is that im right.
We are now on a psychological journey..
As the Mind of man is the ONE constant we can measure in the search for God.

And just as we have these highly advanced telescopes to aid in our perceptions, some countries and cultures still rely on old methods. Their eyesight. They rely on what their eyes can directly perceive. They do not know how much more exists beyond their limited perspective.

Same too for various churches who are still using sextons to guide them around,
while the rest of us have our Garmin Gps mounted to the dashboard.

You cannot fault the perceptively limited for a limited perception of god.
Instead you must rely on those who have advanced their understanding
(again not of god itself) but what i would call the god process.

And you know what they found..

Most articulations of GOD, work, even in the absence of a totalitarian enforcement, as a psychological process.

Now please read that again, it almost appears as though we could discard HISTORICAL BELIEF as one of our precursors to faith,
and instead rely on Direct Perceptive experience, and that experience is that psychologically..GOD WORKS!

Why?

Its simple...

We have all of human history telling us that god exists. Therefore God exists as a psychological fact, and if this is so, and a psychological fact can be studied (unlike an empirical version of god)..We can quantify a belief system, by its content. And that if we limit ourselves to that which we CAN define i.e. the Psychological component, we are no less describing a truth, that describing the path a road takes through a city.

While That may draw objections, let me make the following analogy provided in a documentary on physics…relelative to observation.

If you had a model of a process, and it followed exactly the physical model of the process…
You can accurately rely on the model to give you information about the process.

Also, ON whether or not Jesus is real…(used to test theories on antimatter)
Take two Jesus'. One real Jesus, and One AI jesus.
If you ask a question of Both jesus and cannot tell their answers apart,
then it matters not whether jesus is real or not.

They used this to test whether an AI computer has consciousness. So if you posed a question to a real person and AI person,
and couldn't tell them apart, it meant that you had to grant consciousness to the AI version.

This analogy applies, whether Jesus is real or not.
The message hits our brain in the same manner.
And just as the mind cannot tell between real stimuli and remembered stimuli..
The resultant effects outcome is not changed, therefore one is an acceptable substitute for the other.

In the absence of knowing if jesus was real..., we must apply this very test.
UNless i could tell the difference between words someone said Jesus said, and Jesus actual words, then i have no choice but be effected by both versions, therefore they are equal.

We can study the psychological map…and judge almost all religious content, from past far history and modern,
based ON WHAT IT DOES. And if an understanding of a tool has allowed its improved efficiency, so too can an improved conception of god be attributed to a greater psychological efficiency that what was present 4500 years ago.

that is an entirely reasonable assumption..and is the one i will be drawing from as i move forward to describe how i got my faith back...after the church stole it.

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PostSat Aug 28, 2010 10:54 pm » by sockpuppet


telocvovim wrote:i think god doesnt change...

and why should he? hes fuckin amazin perfect...

the flaws in the bible... mostly occuring from us takin it literally... nothin in there actually happened... its a users guide.... a guide to tune in to a freak show called... wanna be a god like me and u have to know i am u..?



:wink:

7 the LORD God formed the man [e] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
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PostSat Aug 28, 2010 10:57 pm » by Spock


telocvovim wrote:i think god doesnt change...

and why should he? hes fuckin amazin perfect...

the flaws in the bible... mostly occuring from us takin it literally... nothin in there actually happened... its a users guide.... a guide to tune in to a freak show called... wanna be a god like me and u have to know i am u..?


Interesting point man. Debatable. But yea, I can't debate faith. You would be doing the same thing.

Very interested in where 6 goes next - if he even knows.

The most logical apologetic I have ever witnessed on faith is C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity. I know I sound like a broken record on that.


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