Scientists fear MMR link to autism

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PostTue Jan 25, 2011 1:21 pm » by Drjones

I guess this is especially important for people that have been following the Dr.Andrew Wakefield case. Nice name, WAKEfield.. :think:

Scientists fear MMR link to autism Tuesday, Jan 25 2011 ... utism.html :rtft:
New American research shows that there could be a link between the controversial MMR triple vaccine and autism and bowel disease in children.

'What it means is that the study done earlier by Dr Wakefield and published in 1998 is correct.'

No shit.. :help:

Meanwhile.... the vaccine scam goes into overdrive.. :bang;
New vaccine against pneumonia to saves lives ... 358948.cms :rtft:
A new vaccine against pneumonia is being introduced in Africa and some other countries across the world.

New Vaccine for Tuberculosis Treatment ... -treatment :rtft:
Danish scientists have good news for millions of tuberculosis patients. A vaccine has been developed.

New cocaine vaccine may help addicts :rtft:
A new cocaine vaccine has shown promising results in preventing cocaine from entering the brain in drug-addicted mice, a new study says. :?

Vaccine for alcoholics ... drink.html :rtft:
Scientists have come up with a novel way to help alcoholics quit - by creating a vaccine. :roll:

X Factor Winner Joins Vaccine Campaign :vomit: ... e_Campaign :rtft:
Alexandra Burke has joined Natasha Kaplinsky, Edith Bowman and actress Amanda Mealing to launch the new Save the Children campaign - No Child Born to Die.

and..back to reality..

Vaccinated N.J. teen's death from bacterial meningitis shocks family ... y_tee.html :rtft:
'Dhume’s quick death was a shock to the family, especially because the healthy teenager had previously been vaccinated for bacterial meningitis.' :vomit:

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PostTue Jan 25, 2011 7:58 pm » by Drjones

Bump... i can't believe the small amount of people that seem to read this information... :headscratch:

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PostThu Feb 24, 2011 4:46 am » by Fasteddie

i saw a nice video of the dr whos "team" led to all the vaccines: are bad and leading to autism", getting owned and having his license taken away because hes a quack, and this isnt just like oh the system is mad they are blacklisting me for telling the trueth the guy is seriously corrupt and i think he should be jailed so i dont hold much weight in this BS anderson cooper owned him with facts alone lol

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PostThu Feb 24, 2011 11:44 am » by Electrobadgr

fasteddie wrote:i saw a nice video of the dr whos "team" led to all the vaccines: are bad and leading to autism", getting owned and having his license taken away because hes a quack, and this isnt just like oh the system is mad they are blacklisting me for telling the trueth the guy is seriously corrupt and i think he should be jailed so i dont hold much weight in this BS anderson cooper owned him with facts alone lol

You clearly haven't done a shred of research on this case and are merely regurgitating opinions you learned from the MSM, the science behind Wakefields research is solid, he never at any point said that the MMR causes autism, merely stated that his research showed a possible connection and further research should be done. It was Brian Deer who got Wakefield struck off and he is nothing less than a cunt.

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I have been looking into this case a lot recently and Selective Hearing is a very apt term to peoples responses, i had a recent discussion with some friends on facebook on this issue that got quite heated and covered many aspects of the debate/


electrobadgr wrote:I think it is worth bearing in mind how lucky we are to have this facility here, we overlook how easy it is for us to engage in any debate about any subject with relatively like minded people. I am sure most of you will have had problems in tyring to discuss DTV related topic with the 'norms' so to speak. Well i certainly have, but i have found the whole process very useful in discovering how to and how not to approach these subjects. The purpose of this thread is to show the difference between debate on dtv and on facebook with your 'real friends' , there are certain pitfuls that one will encounter that range from perceived source credibility to deliberate ignorance and point blank refusal to look at the data. You will notice how none of the points i make are ever addressed and the subject is always changed or side swiped in some way or labels start getting banded about, THIS is what we have to deal with if we are to change minds, bear in mind too, these are my friends, i do not hold any ill will towards them for not giving my views any credence, i realise why they are the way they are, it is difficult to see past decades of conditioning.

This thread was about this video, wait until i post the chemtrail debate, lol

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Straw Man via Jim Corr
No doubt another member of the "radical right" eh?
The Cover-Up Ctte Gov Rfrm Investigat-Mercury/Vaccine/Autism

Alan ---------- ‎"Dr. Andrew Wakefield MD UK, well-respected scientist"

wtf? He's the dodgy MMR vaccine scare guy. I think he got struck off by the BMA.

Straw Man
yeah, he had it quite tight from the media over here. Its a shame too because obviously the MMR doesn't cause autism in every case but seems to in some, all further study has been ceased so there could have been an additional determining fa...ctor combined with the vaccine that has been overlooked. I think the reaction to his research was pretty extreme, one would have to overlook a lot of stuff as coincedence to ignore some of the research on this, in any case whatever is happening to these kids is tragic and a thorough investigation wouldn't hurt IMO.See more

Kevin ---------- DUde wait till you have a kid, then you have to make the decision about whether to vaccinate or not. Theres a risk from either decision. The ignorant anti science lobby doesnt help with the difficult choices a parent has to make.

Alan ---------- It wasn't the media who struck him off, it was the GMC, after a thorough investigation.
10 January at 14:08 · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading...

Straw Man
i wouldnt favour having to make those decisions, like i said though, there is definitely some kind of link, whether its the vaccine itself or from the vaccine with another factor (kind of like smylex in Batman:D). But it can't be coincedenc...e. It is common to shoot the messenger with shit like this and whether or not this Wakefield dude was fradulent or not i do think he is not alone in making this connection, i do not advocate undue fearmongering but do encourage thorough scientific study especially with kids health being the primary consideration. From what i can gather though, mercury is accumulative when injected directly into the bloodstream so a link isn't too far fetched. I honestly don't envy parents at all with decisions like this, however there is the option to get the vaccines individually as opposed to in a oner isn't there? no problems reported using seperate vaccines as far as i know?See more

Kevin ----------
dude after some research by Erin we have foudn out that the guy got discredited for only doing the test on 13 people, he also holds the patent to the test and as such stands to make a lot of money from scaring parents into taking the test. ...The medical council although dsicrediting him still offered to give him money to conduct the research on hundreds of children, he declined and would apparently have fled to the USA where the anti science lobby reigns supreme, I'm sure he will make a ton of cash from his patent. So as such there is currently NO evidence whatsoever of any link between autism and the double jab. There is however evidence of children dying from measles because their parents were too scared to get the jab. Underlying this all of course is the fact that the anti science lobby would prefer we didnt vaccinate children in third world areas and save lives with rather silly stories about the evil UN trying to kill off half the population. The facts would seem to be is that the large medicine corporations dont want to be forced to give cut price medicine to those in need, because they want to make money.See more

Straw Man
don't mean to dredge up old shit but looks like the "discredited" Dr Wakefield may have been right after all. ... utism.html

Preparing for the obligatory shooting of the m...essenger :-)See more

Straw Man On a side note if there are children dying from measles then there must be something else at play there (i.e. some kind of additional underlying health issue), this is the same measles which is so terrible that parents have sleepovers to ensure that all their kids get infected at the same time. Its not some terrible life threatening disease, rubella has been in a state of natural decline long before vaccines were introduced to combat it, have you ever met anyone who has had rubella? me neither :-D

Kevin ----------
dude, thats the daily mail (^_^) erin watched an interesting doc about the anti science lobby, you would find it informative (cant remember the name, but ask her). Many old world diseases have been wiped out by vaccination, so no you wont any (coincidence?). Pharmacuetical production, however should always be in the hands of the state as opposed to private companies, but thats an anti-corruption and safe practice issue. With the anti-science lobby, you have to consider the agendas of "faith healers", religious groups, and rogue scientists who stand to make a lot of money in the USA from their patented vaccine-scare tests....hence the "new american research" beginning of the daily mail article..... Conjecture aside, Ive had various vaccinations, and made that choice for my child, and its an informed choice I have been prepared to make and stand by.See more

Alan ----------
‎* Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.

* In 2008, there were 164 000 measles deaths globally – nearly 450 deaths every day or 18 deaths every hour.

* More than 95% of measles deaths occur in low-income countries with weak health infrastructures.

* Measles vaccination resulted in a 78% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2008 worldwide.

* In 2008, about 83% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 72% in 2000.

Source WHO

btw... the study you linked to from the Daily Wail is from 2006 and even the Doctors involved in it made strenuous efforts to make clear that they were not suggesting this was evidence of a link between the MMR vaccine and autism. ... ing_Connec tion_Between_Presence_of_Measles_Virus_and_Autism. htmSee more

Alan ---------- sorry, duff link... try this one ... n29321363/

Straw Man
yes this article is from the daily mail, but they obviously didn't perform the study merely reported on it. Like you say though, measles is only a problem in poor countries where sanitation is virually non-existant. So one could argue that ...vaccines in these countries are nothing more than a quick fix and appropriate sanitation measure would be far more effective in saving lives. When we were kids everyone got measles at somepoint, it was almost a staple part of childhood, if parents really thought their kids were likely to die from it then they certainly wouldn't be having sleepovers in the manner i described earlier.

"At the time, Dr Wakefield said that although they had not proved a link between MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) and autism, there was cause for concern and the Government should offer the option single vaccines - instead of only MMRs - until more research had been done.

The paper - and the confused interpretation of its findings - caused uproar and led to many parents withdrawing their co-operation for the triple jab. Ten of the paper's authors also signed retractions on the interpretation but stood by the science."

Read more: ... z1C3Qm0b7O

So wakefield even said there was not a proven link but more research should be done, i wholeheartedly agree.See more

Straw Man
‎@Kev, i meant to watch that doc that erin watched the other night, was too tired though....will check it out on iplayer:-) its good to bear in mind that the name of science can be distorted, there is true science which is an ongoing proces...s of discovery which is never settled, then there is the scientific dictatorship which states "You must belive what we tell you or you are an enemy of reason", i don't know where the lines between good and bad science blur but i am immediately suspicious of scientific findings which claim to have definitive answers when in many instances the tests simply have not been done.

It is part of the prblem with the peer review process too, e.g. if someone managed to cure themelves of cancer using say some kind of seeds, and the results could not be duplicated, the research is then scrapped and the person who made the initial findings is discredeted instead of trying to establish why this treatment worked in this individual case. There was that dude in the link i posted recently who have supposedly cured himself of cancer but ended up being arrested for selling these seeds as a cure for cancer, now i can appreciate why he was arrested as he was trying to profit from an unproven cure, but no-one was talking about how in this instance he managed to get rid of his cancer using nothing more than seeds.
There is a documentay called Raw in 30days which follows a groupl of diabetics of type 1 and type 2 variety who cure them selves of diabetes in 30days using nothing more than raw food, is it peer reviewed? could the finding be replicated with 100% accuracy again? fuck knows, but it certainly worked, you would be amazed at how angry people get when i say this. But most GPS will admit that they know very little to nothing about nutrition, they only know how to treat symptoms. I wen down with marina to the green witch in aberdour so she could get some candles and i noticed she was selling various treatments for various ailments, i told her i suffered from mild psoraisis and what did she advise (expecting to be "sold" some mumbo jumbo bullshit), she told me that people with psoraisis were omega 3 difficient and advised i increase my intake of fish or cod liver oil and that eskimos don't get psoraisis (i always thought it was a vitamin D thing due to lack of sunlight), the point is though, she gave me practical preventative advice and didn't try to sell me shit i dont need. when i asked my GP what causes it i was told they don't know but use this cream everyday for the rest of your life and it should provide perpetual temporary relief. I don't think it is healthy to assume that doctors and the pharma industry have all the answers, there are learning just the same as the rest of us, i do however think that most disease can be prevented thorugh common sense things like hygene and good nutrition.

Recent studies which show that those who got swine flu last year now have super immunity is testament to our bodies ability to out do vaccines effectiveness, there was that woman who had the swine flu vaccine but dies from swine flu months later....she should have got me tae gob in her mooth, lol :-)See more

Kevin ---------- I really dont think vaccinating children in poor countries and saving their lives in the process iis a "quick fix", its the only moral thing to do. Improving infrastructure and sanitation is a long term issue and a" long term fix" to a completely different problem. Can we assume you also wholehearedly agree with the good Mr Wakefiled patenting a test and in conjunction with certain medical companies standing to make millions from scared parents in the US?

Straw Man
We aren't talking about wakefields study in this instance though so your point is irrelevant. I fail to see how sanitation and the prevention of disease fall into different categories, the two are intrinsically linked as far as i am concern...ed. I fail to see how patenting a study on the effectiveness and subsequent sideeffects of a vaccine could make anyone rich, certainly not as rich as the industries peddling such vaccines whose effectiveness have been called into question more and more often thesedays. All those vaccines btw....patented.See more

Alan ---------- this is a worthwhile read... ... les-death/

Kevin---------- p.s. the only honorable thing for the dude whose cancer receeded (note, not cured) would be to submit to medical tests with the teams of scientists researching a cure, rather than proclaiming a miracle and trying to profit from it (doesnt really suggest his desire to seek the truth)

Straw Man thats what i said, he shouldn't have tried to profit from it, damn sometimes i wonder if you read what i say :-D

Straw Man ... field.html

"BMJ caught in highly politicized scientific fraud
The BMJ, in essence, has been caught pulling off what may be the largest scientific fraud ever perpetrated by any medical journa...l in the history of the world. It grossly misrepresented the facts in falsely accusing Dr Wakefield of fabricating the clinical trial data that led to his landmark study being published in The Lancet in 1998. The innocence of Dr Wakefield has now been established by these newly-released documents.

The British Medical Journal also failed to disclose that its own finances are largely funded by vaccine manufacturers who fill the journal with paid advertising, and that such financial ties may have influenced the journal's decision to attempt to destroy the reputation of a researcher whose findings threatened the profits of its top sponsors."

Learn more: ... Ftp7dIYSee more

Kevin ---------- hmmm, "natural" news.....see there's a link to "cure cancer at home for $5.15 a day" on their sponsors section, hippy quacks (cockney rhyming slag for "total twats") (^_^)

Straw Man theres also an advert to increase the size of my cock by 200% on most websites, it doesn't detract from the content of the article which you've gracefully managed to avoid once again :-)

Straw Man in fact if i look to my right i can see an advert on this very page telling me never to eat bananas, lol

Alan ---------- If this really is "largest scientific fraud ever perpetrated by any medical journal in the history of the world" (hyperbole alert) I suspect we'll be hearing a lot more about it from genuine and authoritative science sources... but I won't be holding my breath.

Straw Man
It remains to be seen i suppose, it strikes me as strange that most would rather assume fraud on the part of a doctor whos sole crime seems to have been to suggest further tests be done before dispensing a new vaccine to kids, as opposed to... potential malpractice on the part of multi billion pound pharmaceutical giant which sole purpose is to profit from the perpetual sickness of the populous. Why not check out the documents mentioned in the article, so far, as with any post i make, it is rare for anyone to comment on the content. Any 'skepticism' applied is merely a regurgitation of established beliefs perpetrated by the mainstream media, how can that be skepticism? How can mainstream journalism be unbiased when the same processes behind corporate lobbying in politics exist within the media? Is anyone likely to openly piss off a pharmaceutical giant? What do you think would happen if they did? The mass swaying of public opinion through a series of smear campaigns in the media 'they' control. All these 'independent' studies couldn't possibly be funded by the same companies that make the vaccines could they? They surely couldn't afford that, lol:) Still it amuses me how for something to be true it has to be verified by mainstream sources, they are usually so good at reporting the extent of corruption that permiates every aspect of society. They're not at all selective:)See more

Straw Man
btw i checked out that 'cure cancer for $5 a day' advert, im not saying the guy is not a conman because i don't know, but essentially he is suggestiong a dietary treatment (a book it seems) which seems to have been effective in many cases.... Again, it's funny how you angrily denonce such suggestions but would happily (perhaps not the best choice of words, lol) recommend invasive, potentially uneffective and life threatening treatment like chemotherapy which in the US can cost $10,000 per session and is rarely effective against long term cancer treatment, if the patient actually survuves the treatment itself. If you are so outraged by the suggestion that dietary changes may have positive effects on general well being as well as being a potential treatment for a variety of disease and illness, well i think that speaks more about you than it does me. surely most liberal people of sound mind would advocate the rigorous testing of such methods and the free distribution of such information if shown to be effective in even a percentage of cases? Oh but this guy is selling a book, he must be a conman, he wants money for information. Well unfortunately that is the nature of the capitalist system most fail to look beyond, i would suggest that you file a complaint with naturalnews for featuring an advert of this nature, stripping valuable dollars from well meaning pharmaceutical giants who only exist to help people.See more

Straw Man ... e_us.shtml

an interesting read, whats more interesting is to see how you can brush this to the side, lol :-D

Kevin ---------- dude IMO, wakefield IS a liar,the cancer treatment guy IS a conman and natural news is hippy pish (^_^) give me real news any day. (^_^) My point about the sponsors is relevant and shows what a load of shite the site is (IMO of course) (^_^) and when we talk about "corruption permeating every fabric of our society, what makes you conspiracy types think you are any less misinformed, corrupt or corruptable than the rest of us? Oh that will be a thing called "faith" wouldnt it? Yes, the cornerstone of many a fable. (^_^)

Kevin ---------- i looked at prevent and was somewhat staggered by all the mother earth conciousness shite, and a headline in the reviews section that read "Does reincarnation influence your health" sorry, i gave up there..... Give me science over religion, facts over conspiracy. Any factual merit in alternative therapies are hidden behind all those pony tailed charlatans wanting to be the next Charles Manson if you know what i mean.

Alan ----------
Homoeopathic fruitbat websites are easy to brush aside because they are not, in any sense of the word, remotely authoritative and are really just in the business of trying to sell you gojo berries or whatever the latest homoeopathic quack r...emedy happens to be.

Show me some peer reviewed research from a legitimate scientific source that supports these outrageous (and potentially lethal) claims and I might feel different. Until then, will you hold my magnetico health bracelet while I hug this tree? :)See more

Straw Man
congratulations for being so predictable, what do you base your conclusions on? oh thats right, all your opinions are second hand regurgitations brought to you by your faithful mainstream media who always tell the truth. Ignore the fact i h...ave provided you with 200 years of peer reviewed evidence which clearly proves the ineffectiveness of vaccines vs sanitation. You just point blank refuse to absorb any information that challenges your predispositions, you refuse to even accept the possibility that you could ever be wrong. Every single point i have made in this thread and others is perfectly valid, yet never address a single one on a point by point basis, you resort to cheap distraction tactics, anything so you don't have to challenge your paradigm. Banding about cheap labels you've learned from the corporate media designed to stiffle in depth discussion, at least us so called "conspiracy types" are capable of such discussion. Half the guys on these forums would tear you to shreds with a reasoned argument backed by data yet are also open to be proven wrong. That is the point, but keep never questioning why you have the opinions you do or how you arrived at them, you claim to be an advocate of science yet only acknowledge science that is backed by corporate interests and denounce any science that challenges the status quo. I am strongly reconsidering our ability to have a discussion. :-/See more

Straw Man
Interesting how you use the word faith, you seem to have more of it than me. Faith that the government, media, pharmaceutical corporations and the corporate funded scietific establishment are incapable of perpetrating a fraudulent, profit d...riven agenda. When these establishment bodies start getting worried about something and turning their efforts to making sure we don't take it seriously, do you really think they are trying to protect us or themselves? Where and when did you cultivate such strong faith in all of these systems which have been shown to consistently fail us? Since when does the 1% of the population that controls all of the wealth give a fuck about making sure we were all disease free? Why does the concept of sanitation over vaccination enrage and frighten you to the point where you declare it dangerous? if thats the case why don't you start shitting in the living room and see how many vaccines stop you from getting ill then. Look a bit closer and i think you'll find that its YOUR whole belief system that is fucked, you have given away far too much of your mind and you can't even see it.See more

Straw Man last night whilst watching the news there was an advert offering me a convenient personal loan at the low rate of 2343% APR, by association then i should ignore everything said on the news as they sold advertising space to an unscrupulous financial trader. Works both ways :-)

Kevin ----------
nah dude you dont need to warn me about the 1% and profit driven motives, been aware of them for years. I just strongly disagree on the vaccines issue, I already mentioned sanitation being another issue. Some beardies in the US may think t...hat sanitation would be more effective,and that all vaccines are a means of establishing a New World Order by mass murder, but I doubt they'd give the profits from their "lay line stroking self help conciousness books " to aid the third world in that attempt. Both strategies have merit, and the vaccination strategy has saved millions of lives since some non corporate funded 19th century scientists researched and proposed the use of vaccination, much to the scepticism and false alarms plugged by the mainstream media and fanatics of the day. Who coincidentally labelled the same accusations we see at sites like "natural news" and worse at these people. Im all up for debate, so theres no need to "reconsider our ability to have a discussion", thats daft. Thats like me saying I dont want to talk to you because you take Conspiracy Theories more seriously than I ever would, different strokes and all that :) if all you want is us saying "yeah man", and "totally true man", well thats not a debate is it? Just because I dont believe half the stuff from these sources does not automatically make me a mainstream media fed drone, any more than it makes someone from one religion an enemy of the other(^_^)See more

Straw Man
the last thing i want is to be agreed with unquestioningly, its just that when i spend a fair bit of time forming a reasoned argument only for every point i make to be overlooked, ignored or side swiped i just think its not really a discuss...ion so much as two people having two or more completely seperate conversations simultaneously, i like to address things on a point by point basis and decide if there if merit or bullshit within each point and address that. Its good to really deconstruct every aspect of an argument or debate before going off on tangents (as is so often to easy, lol) I often use mainstream media sources but am aware of the agenda of these sources, peopl of certain political persuasions use certain information to help further an unpopular chain of thought or ideal, that shouldn't stop one from absorbing that information providing you are not being swayed into the agenda in question. Information is information, how certain parties utilise that information is a seperate issue. Persoanlly i will always be suspicious of persons or organisations that covet power and profit above all else, that goes for people trying to sell magic jelly beans as well as huge cabals of the elite. Like i keep saying though, it doesn't surpirise me that certain information doesn't make it into the mainstream public domain, i certainly dont think any less of the information for it especially when it is supported by scientific data, no matter how unpopular the findings. Authorittive scientific findings have often been subject to change and new understandings, as should be the way of things, often after having to buckle under the weight of huge reams of data that once only existed on the fringes of understanding. Often we find that yesterdays conspiracy theories are todays declassified history, worth bearing mind i think :-)See more

Straw Man
‎@ Alan, Here is the exact same data i presented earlier but from a different site, one focussed on child health safety

Just read the data on its own merits, otherwise you will just prove to me t...hat you are being wilfully ignorant, and only comment on my posts to antagonise me in some way because i refuse to accept you establishment rhetoric. To brush things aside in this manner is comparable to a christian refusing to accept the theory of evolution, they just won't look at the data. Maybe its an age difference thing, they say your opinions become more rigid as you get older ;-DSee more

Kevin ----------
dude thats just a wordpress hosted site. anyone could have published it. Sometimes you accuse us of arrogance, ignorance, and predictablity fed by the establishment, and we could also accuse you of believing 100% and without question, every... peice of conspiracy theory that has ever been doing the rounds since the 50's. This tends to happen when one of us gets the hump at the other. But please remember that even though sometimes I disagree with some of the things you rant about (^_^), youre still a friend and should welcome heated debate, as long as you dont join the Tory party Im well up for a bit o debate. IMO i just think the bulk of alternative media is fulll of even more unsolicited bullshit than the mainstream. SO if you post something Im dubious about, expect a debate, if you post something I beleive is true, then expect agreement. Other than that we should blast more zombies.....See more

Straw Man
Fuckin a', was a gid zombie slaying sesh t'other day:-). My only reason for reposting that link was so there was no adverts to detract from the data itself. The data is legitimite and i just don't think it should be frivolously overlooked, for thought if little else. I believe it is well established that the most 'respected' medical journals recieve large amounts in advertising from pharma companies so would not be likely to publish such findings, it is not uncommon for this type of 'selective reporting' to occur in any other media outlet so it shouldnt be overly difficult to see similar goings on here. That is why we are genuinely very lucky to have the internet, wikileaks being a recent example of how fragile a state net freedom is in. But the point is that we shouldnt expect the truth to be so easy to find as switching on the tv or picking up a paper, you only have to briefly consider the financial process of delivering that information to you to know the money had to come from somewhere. It is so easy to smear the little guy, sure sometimes rightly so but i dont think considering the other side of the coin is at all inherently dangerous, which is what 'they' want us to think. Fringe thinking is under attack as the rise of the radical right heightens, it can sometimes be difficult to see where the lines blur but i am sure you know me well enough to know i am not being radicalised in any way, just openly curious and of the opinion that we have been lied to so much throughout history that we can never be too careful. I dislike the perpetration of the idea of human limitation and dependance on things of little relevance, i think health should be focused more on causes than symptoms and thats where my point about sanitation comes in. I always want to know what causes my illnesses and never get answers, hence my skepticism from 1st hande experience alone never mind what i read on the net. Dont get me wrong though, the NHS is fucking ace!!:-) See more

Straw Man
Don't worry folks, this is the last point i am going to make on this issue. There has been quite a stir over a newly released document from the International Medical Council on Vaccination. I was dubious about posting this as unfortunately ...Naturalnews got the exclusive and i know how you feel about the suggestion that man can heal himself naturally. Nevertheless, i will post it with a link to the organisation in questions site for your scrutiny, i did a quick search and could find no negative associations to this organisation. See whatt you make of this, i would suggest that it is fairly authoritative ... ort-EN.pdf

Now if you are going to call all of these signatories "Quacks" or attempt to discredit them then be my guest, but these concerns are not born out of the "anti-science lobby" or scientific ignorance, quite the opposite. Does the prospect of new scientific understanding on this issue not fill you with a bit of excitement? Progress is good folks :-DSee more

Straw Man Btw i am not so much questioning effectiveness so much as safety, i would suggest that there is conflicting studies on the effectiveness of vaccination so i am in the "on the fence" bracket as far as thats concerned.

Straw Man
I take it i am just getting ignored now, the term 'silence speaks volumes' is particularly apt.

I am genuinley not trying to point score, but any 3rd party reading this thread would have to admit that i am the one who has made the effort in... making my points in a reasoned and concise manner and the self appointed pro-vaccine lobby has been predictably dismissive without actually forming a cohesive argument. Alan, if you dont like talking about shit with me feel free to delete me, i feel my views are genuinely offensive to you and i dont want you to think badly of me (any more than currently anyway). I don't post stuff to be willfully contoversial or provocative, believe it or not i really do care about people and when i post stuff like this it is thru real concern and a desire to share views outwith the mainstream. I am prepared to be attacked for my views but would hope my friends would give me the benefit of the doubt and know that i am not proclaiming to have the 'gospel truth', only sharing viewpoints and scientific studies that i find interesting and i think we should have a look at.

Peace :-)
"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly. time-y wimey... stuff." - The Doctor

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