Strange tale of the green children of Woolpit.

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PostFri Mar 25, 2011 4:16 pm » by Edgarrothstein


ogmios wrote:I went to Turkey years ago and there was a story of a people who lived on a hilltop town who all went green. They thought it was because of the amount of vegetables they ate......but it wasn't. They all had malaria and died out.


Yep.
No wonder this Yoruba Sickness mask from Benin happens to have its lips painted in green, to emphasise sickness :

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Interestingly enough, Ogun, the Vodoun Loa that protects wealth and work is green and black.
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PostFri Mar 25, 2011 4:22 pm » by Edgarrothstein


iamthatiam wrote:Na Ja.... :look:

Vielen Danke Ed,Ich wusste nicht viel uber diese Erkudungen!

:cheers:


:mrgreen:
:cheers:
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PostSat Mar 26, 2011 1:40 am » by Iamthatiam


edgarrothstein wrote:Image

Interestingly enough, Ogun, the Vodoun Loa that protects wealth and work is green and black.


Some Brazilian Religions initially practiced by slaves inside places called "Senzalas",like Umbanda and Candomblé have integrated all these african deities in an interesting syncretic way!

The Candomblé is a religion developed in Brazil by enslaved Africans who attempted to
recreate their culture on the other side of the ocean. In a very different environment, far
from everything familiar, in an unknown land among unknown African, European and
Indigenous people, and in spite of unimaginably inhuman conditions, these transplanted
Africans evolved a religion based on the spiritual knowledge they brought with them,
adapting it to a new reality.
Brazil was the last country in the Americas to abolish slavery, in 1888, more than a
generation later than the U.S. in 1863. The transatlantic slave trade officially lasted until
1851 in Brazil, as opposed to its official end in 1808 in the United States, which allowed
new African influences to continue entering Brazilian society until a much later date.
Catholicism contributed to Afro-Brazilians' ability to retain their African religion. Its
many saints, feast days, processions, costumes, and elaborate rituals provided a much
more congenial camouflage for African beliefs and practices than did the austere
Protestantism of the United States.
Although people from many ethnic groups in West and Central Africa arrived in Brazil,
the dominant Afro-Brazilian religious culture is Yoruba, from the area that is now
Nigeria and Benin. The Yoruba were the major group taken to Brazil in the nineteenth
century. Their enslavement was facilitated by civil wars between Yoruba kingdoms, in
which the losers often found themselves on ships bound for the Americas. Yoruba
numerical importance and concentration in urban areas allowed their religion to prevail
over other African religious observances practiced at the time, and to institutionalize and
perpetuate itself into the present.
The Orishás, the anthropomorphized forces of nature who are the spiritual beings of the
Yoruba, are associated in Africa with geographical features, extended families, towns,
and the Yoruba subgroups dominant in those towns. For example, Shangó, Orishá of
thunder, has the center of his worship in the town of Oyó, of which he is a divinized king.
Oshun, Orishá of the river that bears her name, is worshiped in Ijesha and Ijebu, where
the river flows, and especially in Oshogbo because of a pact she made with the first king
of that town.
Yemanjá, Orishá of rivers, is worshipped by the Egba subgroup, and was worshiped in
the areas of Ife and Ibadan where the river Yemoja, from which her name is taken, flows.
Forced by war between Yoruba kingdoms to relocate to the area of Abeokuta, the Egba
took with them the sacred objects associated with Yemanjá. Certain Orishás, however,
are worshipped among all Yoruba groups, such as Oshalá or Obatala, the creator of
human life, and Ogun, Orishá of iron and ironworkers.
As a result of European colonization and the imposition of Western institutions, including
religion, the worship of the Orishás has declined in Nigeria and Benin, whereas it has
flourished and continues to grow and spread in its new incarnations in the Americas. The
worship of some Orishás was greatly diminished in Africa because so many people
responsible for it were transported to the Americas. Such is the case with Oshossi, the
Orishá of the forest and hunting.
The Yoruba town of Ketu in the Republic of Benin, center of the worship of Oshossi,
who was, like Shangó, a divinized king, was devastated by the Fon kingdom of Abomey
in the 19th century. Many of its inhabitants, including initiates of Oshossi, were sold into
slavery. People from Ketu responsible for the worship of Oshossi were involved in the
founding of Brazil's earliest and most influential Candomblé houses, considered to be of
the Ketu “nation”. Yoruba scholars from Nigeria have found elements of their religious
past recreated in Brazil.
The Portuguese prohibited the enslaved Africans from worshiping their own deities, and
obliged them to participate in the veneration of the Catholic saints. The Yoruba learned
the names and characteristics of these saints, perceived similarities between them and the
Orishás, and established equivalences that allowed them to use the saints to camouflage
their own spiritual beings.
Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception, the Virgin Mary, the mother of Jesus, initially
meant nothing to the Africans. But they were familiar with Yemanjá, who in America
was again transformed, this time from the Orishá of a river into the Orishá of the oceans,
the crossing of which their ancestors had survived. They didn’t know St. Lazarus, the
leper, but they did know Omolú or Obaluaiyé, Orishá of smallpox and epidemics. Jesus
Christ was equally unknown to them, but they all knew Oshalá, the eldest Orishá, and
father of humans. In the same way, St. George, who slew a dragon, was associated with
Oshossi, Orishá of the forests and hunting. And Saint Ann, mother of the Virgin Mary,
was associated with Nana, the eldest of the water Orishás.
The Portuguese obliged the Africans to pay homage to the saints on their feast days.
Although appearing to worship Saint Barbara or Saint Anthony, the Yoruba knew they
were really worshiping Yansan, Orishá of the River Niger and of the winds of storm, or
Ogun, Orishá of iron and the iron tools used to create both civilization and war. They
believed that the Orishás would understand the necessarily convoluted manner in which
they managed to acknowledge them. The Orishás apparently did understand, and even
triumphed, in that the Afro-Brazilian religion survived both slavery and postslavery
oppression. And the Orishás are now worshiped publicly, even by descendants of former
enslavers.
The Candomblé represents a microcosm of the Yoruba spiritual world, a kind of pan-
Yoruba cosmology. Each Candomblé house has a patron Orishá, the Orishá of the
founder, as well as altars for the other Orishás. Whereas in Africa each Orishá was
worshipped separately, in Brazil they are grouped together. The small numbers of people
dedicated to each Orishá, their close interaction with people from other areas, and the
desirability of developing a larger institutional structure for support and protection in a
hostile environment, inclined them to join together. The Candomblé provided a basis for
a new social organization replacing systems destroyed by slavery.
Yoruba from Oshogbo who had worshiped Oshun, those of Oyó who had worshiped
Shangó, those from Abeokuta who had worshiped Yemoja, and those of Ketu who had
worshiped Oshossi, found themselves together, with others, in a common situation in an
unfamiliar place. Together they created a new religious structure in which each could
worship his or her Orishá in the context of the worship of all the Orishás.
Those Orishás found in the Americas indicate the areas from which critical masses of
Yoruba people were enslaved. The importance of the worship of Shangó, Yemanjá,
Oshossi, and Oshun in Brazil indicates that large numbers of people were taken from
Oyó, Abeokuta, Ketu, and Oshogbo. Thus, Afro-Brazilian Candomblé houses represent
microcosms of both Yoruba human and spiritual geography.
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PostSat Mar 26, 2011 1:44 am » by Iamthatiam


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PostSat Mar 26, 2011 8:07 am » by Edgarrothstein


iamthatiam wrote:
edgarrothstein wrote:Image

Interestingly enough, Ogun, the Vodoun Loa that protects wealth and work is green and black.


Some Brazilian Religions initially practiced by slaves inside places called "Senzalas",like Umbanda and Candomblé have integrated all these african deities in an interesting syncretic way!

The Candomblé is a religion developed in Brazil by enslaved Africans who attempted to
recreate their culture on the other side of the ocean. In a very different environment, far
from everything familiar, in an unknown land among unknown African, European and
Indigenous people, and in spite of unimaginably inhuman conditions, these transplanted
Africans evolved a religion based on the spiritual knowledge they brought with them,
adapting it to a new reality.
Brazil was the last country in the Americas to abolish slavery, in 1888, more than a
generation later than the U.S. in 1863. The transatlantic slave trade officially lasted until
1851 in Brazil, as opposed to its official end in 1808 in the United States, which allowed
new African influences to continue entering Brazilian society until a much later date.
Catholicism contributed to Afro-Brazilians' ability to retain their African religion. Its
many saints, feast days, processions, costumes, and elaborate rituals provided a much
more congenial camouflage for African beliefs and practices than did the austere
Protestantism of the United States.
Although people from many ethnic groups in West and Central Africa arrived in Brazil,
the dominant Afro-Brazilian religious culture is Yoruba, from the area that is now
Nigeria and Benin. The Yoruba were the major group taken to Brazil in the nineteenth
century. Their enslavement was facilitated by civil wars between Yoruba kingdoms, in
which the losers often found themselves on ships bound for the Americas. Yoruba
numerical importance and concentration in urban areas allowed their religion to prevail
over other African religious observances practiced at the time, and to institutionalize and
perpetuate itself into the present.
The Orishás, the anthropomorphized forces of nature who are the spiritual beings of the
Yoruba, are associated in Africa with geographical features, extended families, towns,
and the Yoruba subgroups dominant in those towns. For example, Shangó, Orishá of
thunder, has the center of his worship in the town of Oyó, of which he is a divinized king.
Oshun, Orishá of the river that bears her name, is worshiped in Ijesha and Ijebu, where
the river flows, and especially in Oshogbo because of a pact she made with the first king
of that town.
Yemanjá, Orishá of rivers, is worshipped by the Egba subgroup, and was worshiped in
the areas of Ife and Ibadan where the river Yemoja, from which her name is taken, flows.
Forced by war between Yoruba kingdoms to relocate to the area of Abeokuta, the Egba
took with them the sacred objects associated with Yemanjá. Certain Orishás, however,
are worshipped among all Yoruba groups, such as Oshalá or Obatala, the creator of
human life, and Ogun, Orishá of iron and ironworkers.
As a result of European colonization and the imposition of Western institutions, including
religion, the worship of the Orishás has declined in Nigeria and Benin, whereas it has
flourished and continues to grow and spread in its new incarnations in the Americas. The
worship of some Orishás was greatly diminished in Africa because so many people
responsible for it were transported to the Americas. Such is the case with Oshossi, the
Orishá of the forest and hunting.
The Yoruba town of Ketu in the Republic of Benin, center of the worship of Oshossi,
who was, like Shangó, a divinized king, was devastated by the Fon kingdom of Abomey
in the 19th century. Many of its inhabitants, including initiates of Oshossi, were sold into
slavery. People from Ketu responsible for the worship of Oshossi were involved in the
founding of Brazil's earliest and most influential Candomblé houses, considered to be of
the Ketu “nation”. Yoruba scholars from Nigeria have found elements of their religious
past recreated in Brazil.
The Portuguese prohibited the enslaved Africans from worshiping their own deities, and
obliged them to participate in the veneration of the Catholic saints. The Yoruba learned
the names and characteristics of these saints, perceived similarities between them and the
Orishás, and established equivalences that allowed them to use the saints to camouflage
their own spiritual beings.
Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception, the Virgin Mary, the mother of Jesus, initially
meant nothing to the Africans. But they were familiar with Yemanjá, who in America
was again transformed, this time from the Orishá of a river into the Orishá of the oceans,
the crossing of which their ancestors had survived. They didn’t know St. Lazarus, the
leper, but they did know Omolú or Obaluaiyé, Orishá of smallpox and epidemics. Jesus
Christ was equally unknown to them, but they all knew Oshalá, the eldest Orishá, and
father of humans. In the same way, St. George, who slew a dragon, was associated with
Oshossi, Orishá of the forests and hunting. And Saint Ann, mother of the Virgin Mary,
was associated with Nana, the eldest of the water Orishás.
The Portuguese obliged the Africans to pay homage to the saints on their feast days.
Although appearing to worship Saint Barbara or Saint Anthony, the Yoruba knew they
were really worshiping Yansan, Orishá of the River Niger and of the winds of storm, or
Ogun, Orishá of iron and the iron tools used to create both civilization and war. They
believed that the Orishás would understand the necessarily convoluted manner in which
they managed to acknowledge them. The Orishás apparently did understand, and even
triumphed, in that the Afro-Brazilian religion survived both slavery and postslavery
oppression. And the Orishás are now worshiped publicly, even by descendants of former
enslavers.
The Candomblé represents a microcosm of the Yoruba spiritual world, a kind of pan-
Yoruba cosmology. Each Candomblé house has a patron Orishá, the Orishá of the
founder, as well as altars for the other Orishás. Whereas in Africa each Orishá was
worshipped separately, in Brazil they are grouped together. The small numbers of people
dedicated to each Orishá, their close interaction with people from other areas, and the
desirability of developing a larger institutional structure for support and protection in a
hostile environment, inclined them to join together. The Candomblé provided a basis for
a new social organization replacing systems destroyed by slavery.
Yoruba from Oshogbo who had worshiped Oshun, those of Oyó who had worshiped
Shangó, those from Abeokuta who had worshiped Yemoja, and those of Ketu who had
worshiped Oshossi, found themselves together, with others, in a common situation in an
unfamiliar place. Together they created a new religious structure in which each could
worship his or her Orishá in the context of the worship of all the Orishás.
Those Orishás found in the Americas indicate the areas from which critical masses of
Yoruba people were enslaved. The importance of the worship of Shangó, Yemanjá,
Oshossi, and Oshun in Brazil indicates that large numbers of people were taken from
Oyó, Abeokuta, Ketu, and Oshogbo. Thus, Afro-Brazilian Candomblé houses represent
microcosms of both Yoruba human and spiritual geography.


Yep. :flop:

Every part of indigenous-became-diasporian Vodoun beliefs (note, i don't say religion...) had to have its Christian or whichever else local (talking about melange :D ) counterpart(s). Pantheons especially. There was no other way to assimilate, unfortunately.

That is actually the basics of my GAOTU theory. Myths, legends, stories (stories - like Alreadydead's, to keep the shit on-topic...) are virtually the same, wherever you turn your head around. Colours, behaviours, gestures, all of the divinities-presented-as-humans ways of depiction, are merely in very presentable milieu of the folk-lore.

But i'll leave that for another thread.

Sorry for meandering, Alreadydead :oops:

There's a great presentation of a big part of Haitian Vodou (unfortunately, somewhat distorted from the real Dahomey/Benin origins...) Pantheon of Loas here :

http://www.research.ucsb.edu/cbs/projects/divinehaiti.html
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PostSat Mar 26, 2011 12:17 pm » by Alexrubic


stratafire wrote:That's interesting and "biologically" possible, if the adaptive nature of Human physiology was altered to accept chlorophyll as primary carrier for oxygen..

The Heme (of hemoglobin) and Chlorophyll are nearly identical in the chemical makeup except for the central atom used for oxidation and of course the sub chains themselves, it could be used as a "support" mechanism for oxygen low environments since the only primary difference between the two , is the oxidation atom used.. Hemoglobin uses a "iron" atom (which iron oxidizes into a red tinged material, while Chlorophyll uses a "Magnesium" Atom which oxidizes into a "green tinged" material..
Image

If the body could adapt to using chlorophyll as a primary, rather then the Iron atom, then we too, would appear green, yet could survive in a very low or "no oxygen" environment as we would be able to produce our own oxygen internally..

This could lend credence to the tail, as the children would have to have come from a very low or almost non-existent oxygen environment, and a primary diet would consist of chlorophyll enriched matter (plants)..

As the tail is told, it appears that of the two, the female was able to adapt to the oxygen rich environment, and start producing Iron based hemoglobin (though I suspect the male succumbed to the local viral infections of the day, and not as a result of adapting to an oxygen rich environment) which to myself (under this hypothetical) exactly "where" would one find a low oxygen or non-existent oxygen environment on this planet, where the sunlight is "muted", and requires organics to adapt for chlorophyll production to remain alive?..

Earth, and the sea, are the only two that come to mind currently (space would not be one of them, as the condition of space itself, would require more then oxygen, as their is an unlimited supply of harmful radiation to tend to as well as extreme opposite environmental conditions)

Related to the above, I think a much simpler and more viable explanation for the skin colour of these children is a condition that was called 'chlorosis' (also known as "green sickness") but is now known as 'hypochromic anaemia':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorosis_%28medicine%29
The name "chlorosis" was coined in 1615 by Montpellier professor of medicine Jean Varandal from the word "Chloris" (Greek: χλωρις) meaning "greenish-yellow," "pale green," "pale," "pallid" or "fresh".


Wikipedia also has a page on the green children of Woolpit story:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_children_of_Woolpit
The girl adjusted to her new life and was baptised, but she was considered "rather loose and wanton in her conduct".

This is a rather interesting detail, from the point of view of the chlorosis reference given above, as it also says:
Chlorosis is briefly mentioned in Cassanova's Histoire de ma vie: "I do not know, but we have some physicians who say that chlorosis in girls is the result of that pleasure [onanism] indulged in to excess."
Last edited by Alexrubic on Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostSat Mar 26, 2011 12:35 pm » by Allreadydead


Just to let you know folks, that if your interested in stuff like this, then here's the URL's to the first two stories in the series of Graveyard Gossip if you missed them first time round! :mrgreen:

The legend Of Lucy Lightfoot
http://www.disclose.tv/forum/graveyard-gossip-1-t43219.html

The strange tale of Spring-Heeled Jack.
http://www.disclose.tv/forum/graveyard-gossip-2-t44175.html

:cheers:
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PostSat Mar 26, 2011 10:29 pm » by Iamthatiam


edgarrothstein wrote:Every part of indigenous-became-diasporian Vodoun beliefs (note, i don't say religion...) had to have its Christian or whichever else local (talking about melange :D ) counterpart(s). Pantheons especially. There was no other way to assimilate, unfortunately.

That is actually the basics of my GAOTU theory. Myths, legends, stories (stories - like Alreadydead's, to keep the shit on-topic...) are virtually the same, wherever you turn your head around. Colours, behaviours, gestures, all of the divinities-presented-as-humans ways of depiction, are merely in very presentable milieu of the folk-lore.

There's a great presentation of a big part of Haitian Vodou (unfortunately, somewhat distorted from the real Dahomey/Benin origins...) Pantheon of Loas here :

http://www.research.ucsb.edu/cbs/projects/divinehaiti.html


Excellent overview definition Ed!Youre probably an Art Expert (Collector/Dealer),some collectors have a far better insightful perspective about general artistry and its Hystorical Anthropologic connections and influences than some scholars,not discrediting art scholarship but i believe that mostly they see art through the scientific glasses,lacking the necessary passion in order That mental integration about the related object and all the surrounding contexts,even the peripherals can occurs. :flop:

ARD,didnt mean to derail your thread my friend,but i believe you to not be bothered at all :cheers:
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PostSun Mar 27, 2011 7:39 am » by Edgarrothstein


iamthatiam wrote:
edgarrothstein wrote:Every part of indigenous-became-diasporian Vodoun beliefs (note, i don't say religion...) had to have its Christian or whichever else local (talking about melange :D ) counterpart(s). Pantheons especially. There was no other way to assimilate, unfortunately.

That is actually the basics of my GAOTU theory. Myths, legends, stories (stories - like Alreadydead's, to keep the shit on-topic...) are virtually the same, wherever you turn your head around. Colours, behaviours, gestures, all of the divinities-presented-as-humans ways of depiction, are merely in very presentable milieu of the folk-lore.

There's a great presentation of a big part of Haitian Vodou (unfortunately, somewhat distorted from the real Dahomey/Benin origins...) Pantheon of Loas here :

http://www.research.ucsb.edu/cbs/projects/divinehaiti.html


Excellent overview definition Ed!Youre probably an Art Expert (Collector/Dealer),some collectors have a far better insightful perspective about general artistry and its Hystorical Anthropologic connections and influences than some scholars,not discrediting art scholarship but i believe that mostly they see art through the scientific glasses,lacking the necessary passion in order That mental integration about the related object and all the surrounding contexts,even the peripherals can occurs. :flop:

ARD,didnt mean to derail your thread my friend,but i believe you to not be bothered at all :cheers:


Well, G...

I'm a cultural anthropologist, closely specialised in Western African beliefs and lores. From Mali and Cameroun to Dahomey (screw Benin, i like Dahomey...).

I was one of the first whities that happened to be allowed to listen and record Baka Natives in Cameroun and Gabon in the 70's, decades before they became fashionable.

Set their wonderful harmonisations - comparable only to the great Hermetic music of Scarlatti, Haendel, Bach and others - aside; their myths of the Green People from the Forests (told only to the chosen ones, yours truly included...) are similar to the Alreadydead's British lore. Just imagine thousands of miles of distance between the Baka pygmies (well, to be honest anthropologically, they're not really pygmies )...culturally, or whatever else, and British people. Yet, the stories remain almost similar. :flop:

That's what fascinates me.

Hence my doctrine that all of the people, regardless of faith, colour, sex, or whatever shit differentiates us nowadays, are really the same.

No sincere love - no GAOTU, if you know what i mean.

And you know... :cheers:
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PostSun Mar 27, 2011 5:53 pm » by Allreadydead


ARD,didnt mean to derail your thread my friend,but i believe you to not be bothered at all


No probs!! - I've derailed a few in my time.................. :oops: :mrgreen:

:cheers:
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