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PostSun Dec 08, 2013 4:25 am » by Thebluecanary


Toxic32 wrote:The problem is like when you dig in your garden. You go down two or three foot what do you find? Me I have no ide how you could separate what was there against what was killed when I dropped 10 tons or more of rock on there heads or what died a natural death. If you dig a hole and drop a rock into it how can you say after a few years that rock wasn't part of that level. You can't. So if you lifted the twenty ton rock/or what ever up to take a sample, what would that prove????? Fuckall. I dug the hole last year. I really can't see how they can date the site. What they would need is a body of some sort crushed under the rock. That would allow them to date it properly.


It depends. You can date a site based on a midden, even though it's layers upon layers of stuff heaped on top of stuff, by carefully excavating each level instead of digging straight down like you're taking a core. You can do the same thing with a hole full of dirt, if you're careful and document the layers and dot your is and cross your ts. If they had something like a midden, they could take it down to it's bottom layer and get something conclusive based off what people were eating/pollen/plant matter etc. I'm guessing that due to the circumstances, they don't have anything like that. Doing it with a buried monument is tougher. Doing it with a "rock" is imho impossible. And there is the added weight of anything that does not agree with accepted canon being labeled "anomalous" or a mistake. I agree that I don't think (based off the information in the videos and the indiegogo site) they will be able to conclusively date the site. I would like for them to keep studying it, though, because it's fucking awesome.
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PostSun Dec 08, 2013 12:08 pm » by Chillitiger


I will re-iterate what i said earlier.

they are going to test the QUARRY sites. They may hae some way of determining when the stone was quarries from A) The patina thickness or B) the weathering or C) some other bloody way that we as laymen have no idea about.

This site is obviously older than is commented in the books. It is also obviously very complex and well constructed. Beyond the means that was available at the time.

I doubt they will find conclusive evidence, but surely they can find a rough date for when the stone was hewn from the rock .

Then pollen, dirt, artifacts etc become irrelevant.

And of course no academic book worth it salt will publish the findings anyway, but we at DTV will know!
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PostMon Dec 09, 2013 12:14 am » by Toxic32


Chillitiger wrote:I will re-iterate what i said earlier.

they are going to test the QUARRY sites. They may hae some way of determining when the stone was quarries from A) The patina thickness or B) the weathering or C) some other bloody way that we as laymen have no idea about.

This site is obviously older than is commented in the books. It is also obviously very complex and well constructed. Beyond the means that was available at the time.

I doubt they will find conclusive evidence, but surely they can find a rough date for when the stone was hewn from the rock .

Then pollen, dirt, artifacts etc become irrelevant.

And of course no academic book worth it salt will publish the findings anyway, but we at DTV will know!



You say I doubt they will find conclusive evidence, but surely they can find a rough date for when the stone was hewn from the rock. Well the only method that can date when a rock was broken is called
lichenometry and that is only really accurate up to 500 years, some say a 1000 years and as a layman I now have the tools that allow me to be right up to date on the latest methods and techniques for carrying any research to date these rocks. BUMP
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PostMon Dec 09, 2013 12:29 am » by Elnorel


Stones can NOT be dated. An estimate can be made, based on the gasses trapped in micro bubbles within the rock.

The composition will tell them when the rock was formed.
Which tells you, NOTHING realy.

Back to square one folx.
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And tries to prove these assertions/claims with scientific facts.

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PostMon Dec 09, 2013 12:33 am » by Thebluecanary


I read an article a while back about the Hueyatlaco site east of Mexico City, where the team of university archaeologists dated the site thousands of years earlier than the time humans were supposed to be in that area. I couldn't remember what method they used to date the site, so I went back and searched for it because I thought it was carbon 14. And it was, but they didn't use it on rocks, they were able to date charcoal from campfire remains found in situ. They also used uranium series dating on some lithics from the site but the results were discounted because, of course, rocks; the same date range came up from worked bones also found in situ, though, which was ignored by the debunkers. There isn't any method that I know of to conclusively date worked stone for anything other than the age of the rock itself. I suppose you could try to carbon date lichen or something, but again, not "conclusive". If they're lucky enough to discover any in situ artifacts that CAN be isotopic dated when they excavate the quarry, that might make a difference.

And, of course, the archaeologists and geologists who dated Hueyatlaco all pretty much had their careers destroyed over it, so there's that. I still say more power to them whatever they find.
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PostMon Dec 09, 2013 3:01 am » by Chillitiger


The best course of action there would be to excavate the entire area down to the last man made rock. Most of the area rocks there are still underground.

Just need someone with a few million dollars and some good contacts to dig the place up.

I am sure they would find even more interesting things as they went down.

As for my point of view on the area.

It seems that something very catastrophic happened there to cause the rocks to be thrown around there. Tie that in with the other very strange rock sculptures in other parts of Peru, that look like upside down staircases etc.

The local shamans believe there was a massive underground explosion caused by a volcano a long time ago that destroyed an advanced civilization that had a vast underground city.

The site could be 100,000's of years old. I think the human race has been around for many many mellenia and has gone through many cycles.

The Mahabatra (Indian Vedic Texts) suggest we have been here for millions of years. And since we have dug up about .00001% of actual pre history, it is very hard to find evidence to support this bar a few enigmatic finds that turn up now and again. But it can't be disproved at the very same time.

Any way fingers crossed they can find a way to date the creation of these stone blocks.
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PostMon Dec 09, 2013 5:45 am » by Chillitiger


Updates on dating process.



George T. Bayer has joined the team, and we are delighted to have him with us. He will be doing the analysis using EM, microscopy and FTIR. This adds an incredible dimension to the team.



Because of an early glitch in signup, postings come under my name. We will identify ourselves to help keep things straight. All pictures and videos are from Brien, BTW.

An explanation of the methods to be applied to the stone:

"Brien, I can perform scanning electron microscopy - energy dispersive x-ray spectrometry (SEM-EDS) and light microscopy (surface microscopy to 45x magnification and cross sections to 1000x). These may be useful for tool marks and semi-quantitative elemental analysis such as identifying copper). Also, I can use Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy (FTIR) for any organic matter if present."


SEM will demonstrate the structure of the rock on microscopic scale to distinguish it from all other minerals and from poured (concrete) or remelted materials. It will also help quantify silica. The EDX tool in the EM will allow us to rule in or rule out use of copper-based tools in machining. EM and light microscopy will let us discover any signs of machining, which we expect to see. Further, laser or plasma use in shaping the rock will be visible to a trained eye (Dr. George Bayer). We do not expect that.

FTIR will be used to rule out geopolymer technology.

"Through some of my colleagues, I can also have quantitative phase analysis of minerals in the stone performed by x-ray diffraction (XRD), x-ray photoelectron spectroscopy (XPS) for surface elemental analysis, and chemical analysis for trace elements."

XRD may be used to characterize mineral content, including titanium and tungsten to determine if they or their carbides were used to shape the stone. We should not need to use the other methods in this first study.
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PostMon Dec 09, 2013 1:04 pm » by Toxic32


Chillitiger wrote:Updates on dating process.



George T. Bayer has joined the team, and we are delighted to have him with us. He will be doing the analysis using EM, microscopy and FTIR. This adds an incredible dimension to the team.



Because of an early glitch in signup, postings come under my name. We will identify ourselves to help keep things straight. All pictures and videos are from Brien, BTW.

An explanation of the methods to be applied to the stone:

"Brien, I can perform scanning electron microscopy - energy dispersive x-ray spectrometry (SEM-EDS) and light microscopy (surface microscopy to 45x magnification and cross sections to 1000x). These may be useful for tool marks and semi-quantitative elemental analysis such as identifying copper). Also, I can use Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy (FTIR) for any organic matter if present."


SEM will demonstrate the structure of the rock on microscopic scale to distinguish it from all other minerals and from poured (concrete) or remelted materials. It will also help quantify silica. The EDX tool in the EM will allow us to rule in or rule out use of copper-based tools in machining. EM and light microscopy will let us discover any signs of machining, which we expect to see. Further, laser or plasma use in shaping the rock will be visible to a trained eye (Dr. George Bayer). We do not expect that.

FTIR will be used to rule out geopolymer technology.

"Through some of my colleagues, I can also have quantitative phase analysis of minerals in the stone performed by x-ray diffraction (XRD), x-ray photoelectron spectroscopy (XPS) for surface elemental analysis, and chemical analysis for trace elements."

XRD may be used to characterize mineral content, including titanium and tungsten to determine if they or their carbides were used to shape the stone. We should not need to use the other methods in this first study.




Great addition to the team. Well it looks impressive and will contribute significantly to the overall understanding and method of producing these impressive stones. At least we will understand what these stones are made of LOL and either prove how the shaping was done or at least give a good indication how it was done and even prove they were created by the use of technology beyond the capabilities of that age. But it wont give an indication of age. Anyway I'v contributed and look forward to the findings what ever they are. Lets hope we don't end up being drip fed with hinted at unusual and impossible out comes just to milk more money out of us. No hanging onto the data just so somebody can write a book. If the tests are paid for by interested people then they own it.
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PostMon Dec 09, 2013 9:28 pm » by Cia212


So they're doing Cosmogenic dating?


Cosmogenic isotopes are created when elements in the atmosphere or earth are bombarded by high energy particles (µ-mesons and protons, collectively known as cosmic rays) that penetrate into the atmosphere from outer space. Some cosmic ray particles reach the surface of the earth and contribute to the natural background radiation environment. It was discovered about a decade ago that cosmic ray interaction with silica and oxygen in quartz produced measurable amounts of the isotopes Beryllium-10 and Aluminium-26. Researchers suggested that the accumulation of these isotopes within a rock surface could be used to establish how long that surface was exposed to the atmosphere. Assuming a constant rate of production, the number of atoms of Be-10 and Al-26 that accumulate in a rock surface will be proportional to the length of time the rocks were exposed to cosmic ray bombardment and the respective rates of radioactive decay for each isotope. An age determined by measurement of the amount of each nuclide would be an estimate of the minimum time that the particular surface had been exposed, but would not date the maximum age of the surface exposure, that is, the surface could have been exposed for much longer than the minimum calculated age. Theoretically, exposures of surfaces from between a few thousand to about 10 million years old can be dated by the measurement of the Be-10 and Al-26 isotopes.

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PostTue Dec 10, 2013 11:49 pm » by Chillitiger


New update from the Kickstarter



Here please find a copy of the first chapter of Arthur Posnansky's book about Tiwanaku and Puma Punku. I will add other chapters later. If you could find this book in print, it would cost between 2000 and 3000 US, such is its rarity...

http://email.indiegogo.com/wf/click?upn ... xhplo9obCi


Sorry about the large link. I had a quick look at the pdf. Iy looks fascinating. Be my weekend reading material.
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