Ok,yes you can only reply to what i write and you don't do it very well in my opinion...anyway with replying this is causing alot of issues,not just with me but this happens all over disclose,i stand by my previous comments,effectiveness of vaccines has not been proven,neither has safety,i wonder why?
Example.. (there is quite a few..hmm,yeah)..

The polio vaccine is the most touted example of the human endeavor to triumph against germs. "Every schoolchild knows" that the polio vaccine eradicated polio in the Western hemisphere. But in fact there is no evidence to support this claim.

From 1923 to 1953, before Jonas Salk's killed-virus polio vaccine was introduced, the polio death rate in the U.S. and England had already declined by 47 percent and 55 percent, respectively. The epidemic ended not just in the United States and England, but in European countries that questioned the vaccine's safety and refused to systematically vaccinate their citizens.

Not only was the vaccine ineffective, it produced results opposite to those intended. In the U.S, the number of polio cases following mass vaccinations was significantly greater than before mass vaccinations.

So low forgive me if you find my interest in the following information relevant to my "vaccines are not effective" comments....you should add unsafe to that too...

I may aswell add:
Dr. Viera Scheibner, author of "Vaccinations: 100 Years of Orthodox Research" sums up the position of researchers not funded by pharmaceutical companies: "There is no evidence whatsoever that vaccines of any kind ... are effective in preventing the infectious diseases they are supposed to prevent. Further, adverse effects are amply documented and are far more significant to public health than any adverse effects of infectious diseases. [Vaccinations have] caused more suffering and more deaths than any other human activity in the history of medical intervention.

So Lets start with the basics..and look into your irrefutable source on the evils of vaccines.. Lets see..what was her field of study, how was she educated, and what do her peers think of her conclusions?

Lol her Doctorate course of study was MicroPaleontology..
Not Medicine..Not Epidemiology, not Virology...
NOTHING MEDICAL RELATED WHATSOEVER.

Jones, i realize that the best you can muster in countering me on any issue i have managed to present to you with respect, has been to bash, insult, patronize and act smug..

As a matter of fact, you were the first person to step out on a limb to personally insult me in this forum, by calling me a MORON, for asserting that the Stogosaurus sulpture was IN FACT..a boar..we all know how that went, and you conveniently disappeared, without backing YOURSELF up, after having started the insult game. For the most part Jones, i wont butt into a subject without a serious and legitimate inquiry, and i FIND that the more patronizing, and dismissive the OP is..the more likey that they are out on a limb they themselves arent so sure of, since they wont deal withe either the facts or questions (you state my question "Bemuses you") at hand.. Since a serious question bemuses you, then youre just being smug, without consideration to the real question presented..which i submit you havent answered.STILL. But I digress..

Further she has received the following BLISTERING critique for her utter lack of qualifications in the field and the misleading use of Prefix Doctor in order to gain credibility for speaking toa Field in which "SHE RECIEVED NO FORMAL STUDY".

Thats a fact. Of course, this refutation is off base, and biased right? I mean a paleontologist pretending expertise in a field she has no traiing in whatsoever...
Im a jerk for pointing that out right?

But of COURSE those people are all haters, and disinfo agents..what with her field being completly irrelevant while studying Micro Fauna of the Early Cretaceous era..(yes, that was her specialty)

"The primary emphasis of Scheibner’s work in Australia with the NSW Department of Mines was the study of the Cretaceous and Permian Foraminifera of the Great Australian Basin in New South Wales. She also studied the South Australian and the Carnarvon Basins in Western Australia, South Africa and the Indian Peninsula, and the Permian Foramin­ifera of the Sydney Basin."

And a refutation to her unscientific analyses are presented here:
http://www.skeptics.com.au/theskeptic/1 ... munise.htm

Stephen Basser has written an extensive critical review of "the quality of the science of ... Scheibner" entitled Anti-immunisation scare: The inconvenient facts. One of his criticisms involves a conclusion Scheibner makes regarding a potential correlation between SIDS and immunization in Japan. After review of her principal sources and her resultant conclusion, he states that "Dr. Scheibner's analysis of them "is at best sloppy, and at worst blatantly dishonest."[1]

In 1997, the Australian Skeptics awarded her the "Bent Spoon Award". This award is presented annually to the Australian "perpetrator of the most preposterous piece of pseudoscientific piffle":

"The unanimous choice of the judges was Dr Viera Scheibner for her high profile anti-immunisation campaign which, by promoting new age and conspiracy mythology and by owing little to scientific methodologies or research, poses a serious threat to the health of Australian children."[2]

Lon Morgan, DC, a chiropractor, has written a short analysis of her anti-vaccination stance,[3] as well as an examination of Scheibner's claims of a disappearance of SIDS in Japan.[4] He concludes that:

"Whether it was due to personal bias, lack of relevant health science training, or inept research on her part, or a combination, Ms. Scheibner's claims have not withstood the test of time, or critical examination, and should be rejected."[4]

An extensive critique of her position and qualifications has been published in an article in the Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics.[5]

So i DO still question the total anitvaccine premise, because the people who present it, are generally unscientific conspiratorical and irresponsible..

I would like to say this
Some will not want to be vacinated because anecdotal ( sorry for the spelling ) evidence suggest vacines have harmful side affects. Some will want to be vacinated in the belief that the vacine will ward off the new swine flu. It a question of what scares you more the disease or the cure.So here's my point.
If you fear the disease more than the cure and you are vacinated and your nieghbour is not vacinated what to you have to fear from your nieghbour. After all you've been vacinated and are surpposedly protected from said disease. So the choice to vacinate should be yours and yours alone. If i decide not to take a vacine and die as a result who has been harmed other than myself. As drjones will agree im sure if your diet consist of sound nitritional real foodstuffs and immune boosting herb & spices etc you have little to fear from most if not all ailements that afflict us. The immune system is a case of use it or lose it. Its good to let you kids play in the dirt.

Absolutely great points all, and ive agreed with them with jones many many many times..but he insists on calling me a moron...so agreeing has gotten me NOWHERE..

When in fact, the question ive been trying to get answered for MONTHS, to no avail is this..

And its predicated on a VERy important detail.

Now im not sure why he wont face up and answer a simple fucking question, so I'll leave it up to YOU fine readers to possibly offer yours.


I'll preface this again for the 19th time.
IF, and ONLY IF..this virus mutates like people are saying it will,
and like Jones himself has said it might..
IF this virus starts killing people BY THE MILLIONS..not a hundred, or five hundred, or even fivehundred thousand..IF AND ONLY IF, ITS KILLING MILLIONS PER DAY EVERY DAY of the week, and Humanity is threatened... just as bad or worse than the 1918 pandemic..and you personally, during the weaker part of the Virus Display..didnt believe in Vaccines.. what do you do now?

Do you stake YOUR life (considering this is a killer virus now, not a sniffly virus) on gambling that you can live thru it with your immune system (in that so far, ive seen jones and others claim that its killing the healthy, and leaving the elderly alone) are you gambling that YOULL break the bank and live through it, (yes i take it)

OR

Do you say Fuckit, i know some vaccines are bad, but i dont want to lose my entire family and put everyone at risk, so even if there are marginal (or even unproven, but claimed) side effects, would you still take the Vaccine if it meant saving your life and your failies lives, and helping to not only slow or stop the spread, but protect others around you?? (no i wont take it)


Christ.....getting anyone to answer this has been like pulling teeth,
and i cant for the life of me figure out why..because ive addressed it as respectfully and efficiently and thoroughly as i can..and i just want to know your answers..

Someone..come to the rescue and stake a position..

One problem here:

If you really think about this, it can't get to the 1918 levels. H1N1 came back in 1976, and because all the people who survived 1918 where the ones who had strong immune systems and were either immune naturally or were able to fight it off, the death toll the 2nd time around was not even comparable.

"However, the pandemic, which some experts estimated at the time could infect 50 million to 60 million Americans, never unfolded. Only about 200 cases of swine flu and one death were ultimately reported in the U.S., the CDC said."
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/27/science/sci-swine-history27(3rd page)


Millions eh? Maybe hundreds. Not even a million have been infected, let alone killed.

"H1N1 Flu (Swine Flu) - CDC Statistical Update - US Death Count Reaches 263, July 17, 2009"
http://www.enewspf.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8960:h1n1-flu-swine-flu-cdc-statistical-update-us-death-count-reaches-263-july-17-2009&catid=88888984:h1n1-virus-swine-flu&Itemid=88890169

"LONDON, July 9 (UPI) -- The British government says 14 people infected with the H1N1 influenza virus, or swine flu, have died in Britain to date."
http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2009/07/09/Swine-flu-death-toll-in-Britain-reaches-14/UPI-20821247165739/

"LONDON — Twenty-nine people with swine flu have so far died, health officials said Thursday, in a sharp increase in the death toll from 17 earlier this week."
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iWvI954XhE56RCjjcqkIEYuatCfA

"The number of deaths from swine flu has risen to 14, the government's chief medical officer has disclosed today, as the infection reached epidemic levels in the worst-hit parts of the country."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/09/swine-flu-deaths-epidemic

Now compare this to the regular flu which kills in the tens of thousands every year.

"About 36,000 Americans die on average per year from the complications of flu."
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/disease.htm


a. Fair enough. My intuition tells me the same people are behind it, but I can't prove it. Stuff like this doesn't help though: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hjdCHrP82YTFser5vD6CzTK1az6wD99GH8580
b. The FDA says vaccines do contain mercury. http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228
c. My certain death? The swine flu WILL kill me? If the flu kills me before I have kids, then yes my death would contribute to the overall immune system of life on the planet, because whoever survives will have children and pass on their genes that have survived the test of the fittest.
d. Seems like you're suggesting nothing can survive the swine flu, even though the first time it was introduced, there was no vaccine, and life lives on. People survived it, and we're all stronger because of it. If this were some new virus, It would be dangerous, and I would be heavily considering a vaccine. H1N1 has been around at least twice before. The 2nd time around the vaccines did more damage than the viruses. Eugenics programs never had any influence on me. I've always been this way.

I'd embed this but I don't know how unless it's disclose google or youtube...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9mh9f_swine-flu-1976-propaganda_webcam

nono i may need to clarify,
and i perhaps used 1918 levels because someone else used them.

Im using the hypothetical supposition of it BECOMING a population killer, even if its come nowhere to that, or even if it reached 1918 levels

Im useing that itself as the premise..POPULATION KILLER..

IF IT REACHES that level..what do people do?
thx for your complete reply..i DO appreciate it..
nor was i stabbing at you, or setting you up...

im seeking a greater clarifiation of a moral dilemma here that no one has had the courage to breach yet.

My question is a bazillion times bigger than the 1976 propaganda question even.
Im not saying if they try to SCARE us that it will get that big..
Im asking WHAT IF IT GETS THAT BIG..what does the anti vaccine crowd do?

If you're just worried about a mutating virus that's been around twice before, and we resisted incredibly the 2nd time compared to the first, then I wouldn't be worried about it. It's just another common flu. But I'm no doctor.

If it's a new virus, then we're kind of screwed...

Six, the reason I haven't responded is that I'm still confused about the long-term effectiveness of flu (and some other) vaccines in general.
Vaccines and antibiotics have obviously saved lives, but the overuse of antibiotics is almost as big a problem in the long run as the damned diseases were left alone, and flu vaccinations (which I do NOT automatically assume are some plot to poison us) seem to me to be of little real help. I think there is always a trade-off, but I know firsthand the occasional need for strong antibiotics....goddam Haitian hookers (I'm kidding)...

EXAMPLE:
I'm glad I don't have polio and I'm glad I don't know many polio victims (thank you, modern science) but I do know enough polio victims to say:
If there's a vaccine for this shit, fucking give it to EVERYONE, yeah, and maybe make it mandatory

It's a hard call, even if you're not looking for nefarious plots.

If it weren't for modern medicine there would be a lot less posters on this site, and maybe that would be a FUCKING GOOD THING

Hey, "Doc",
Can you tell me why there are so few people these days hobbling around on crutches due to polio than there were a century ago?
Is it because our collective immune systems have evolved?