The Christ paradigm of so called KENOSIS

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PostSun Sep 25, 2011 11:04 am » by Spock


lowsix wrote:Following Job for what it says about God in the OT is critical here.
God did not become 'globally Just' until after his encounter with Job.
Prior to this, he was merely an angry, unconscious omnipotence,
who discovered the lack of value in crushing human worms like Job.



That's Campbell's take on it, but not necessarily the truth, though an interesting take for a humanist to be able to grasp and not need to rely on faith. However, the main message of the Bible is faith and humans reconciliation to God. That yes, we are lowly humans, "fucking morons", and that is why we need a redeemer, but we don't have to be "fucking morons". There is a a substance of spirit that transforms once putting faith in a God, a "peace that transcends all understanding". We don't have to be able to define every work of God and justify whether it is good or bad by a human standpoint, it just is. It would be like a monkey deciding which is better, an automatic transmission or a straight drive - it just doesn't have the capacity to fully understand the difference.

It's futile to argue people's faith with logic. Faith is personal, it is not a formula that can be written on an chalk board in academia, but the results tend to be very similar from person to person.

I believe God is personal and moves in peoples lives. Examples are all in the Sermon on the Mount, but they go on and on...

Matthew 6: 2-4 wrote:2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.



Matthew 6: 4-8 wrote:6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.


What it boils down to is I partly agree with the O.P., but disagree with the premise that we are just left on our own to hurdle through the hostile universe on this rock. We, all of faith, have a calling and a life mission to fulfill. The journey can be painful, but not moving forward to realize that mission is even more painful psychologically.


lowsix wrote:Psychological processes are the only way through which man can contemplate god, therefore it is not illogical to examine the psychological interface over time.


That's the only way we have to interpret what we can not understand (like the monkey with the straight drive). Though logical it does not make our interpretations any more valid.

lowsix wrote:The wholesale changes in gods personality are due to the wholesale changes in human psychology. Which by extension, called forth Jesus from the Ether, as it always does. The ether is the womb of the virgin.

Which makes Jesus not only a man, but more than a man.

A man that exists throughout all time.


Like Neo in the Matrix

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PostSun Sep 25, 2011 11:07 am » by Svaha


Thanks tertius and low :flop:

7 rather, he (Jesus) made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[a] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.



It took me a while to figure out that a servant is not a slave.
The servant to all or the hollow bone is a very good position, not only for the world, but also for self.
Follow your bliss(ters) - Joseph Campbell

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PostSun Sep 25, 2011 11:29 am » by Lowsix


spock wrote:
lowsix wrote:Following Job for what it says about God in the OT is critical here.
God did not become 'globally Just' until after his encounter with Job.
Prior to this, he was merely an angry, unconscious omnipotence,
who discovered the lack of value in crushing human worms like Job.



That's Campbell's take on it, but not necessarily the truth,


If and when a bible blabber will present me with a more cogent explanation for the real message of job, ill consider it. Ive asked a lot of them, and no ones given me a good answer yet.

They all talk about this submission thing..

For now the churches stance on Job is:

Humans are worms.
God is omnipotent.
God crushes worms.
(bc Satan made him question jobs faith)
Although...some worms have perfect faith.
God crushes them anyways...or tries to.
Their faith remains, so god tries even harder to crush them.
Satan is faultless, since the story is about Jobs faith.

Therefore, having a perfect faith, is no insurance against
a god that is being tricked by the tempter to question a humans faith and cause him to
see humans, (even those with perfect faith), as targets for unwarranted punishment.

Against which there is no protection or defense. Ever.

No justice either.

_________________

Compare that to...

God is led astray by the Tempter. Ego.
Time and Wisdom (sophia) intervenes to show God
that there is no JUSTNESS in crushing
human worms with perfect faith.

God is supposedly just.
God cannot act unjustly, while claiming to be just.
God was tricked by Satan (ego) into being unjust.
Therefore, the only way to rectify himself at Wisdoms insistence,
and to connect with his humans..upon further reflection,
is to become a man. Suffer as man and die as a man.

To be punished by death WHILE being sinless.
To suffer as Job did, unjustly.
Redeeming not only us, by our newfound connection,
but also himself to resolve the just/unjust dichotomy.

-------------------

How were you taught to interpret Job?
(legitimately curious)
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warløckmitbladderinfection wrote:blasphemous new gehenna inhabitant makes god sad...

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PostSun Sep 25, 2011 11:58 am » by Khnumkhufu


-impossible to talk about the new testament, unless we know WHAT it is. Or what is what, if you prefer. Needless to say, anything derived from the new testament is even worse off. Also, there definitely needs to be some distinction between the gods and God.

Sometimes it just feels easier doing a by-pass. Mystical can get you there, but the way Rationality bites itself in the ass can too. -Snake, anyone? :)

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PostSun Sep 25, 2011 12:02 pm » by Truthdefender


First low, just know that I am only disagreeing with what I interpret as T’s premise, and most definitely not beginning a vehement argument with you. But I find a lot of fallacies in your own defense of T’s statements. Now I am only going to try and lay out why I believe your thoughts on this are wrong, but I am not attacking your character or beliefs in general.

Now I agree with this statement of T’s:
“absolute being small, little and nothing of glory, but wholy human, fragile, and with limits.”—
yet the purpose of Jesus’ humility is for example and for us to identify with Him. The following two statements are misleading and almost blasphemous:
“There is no divine power and extrahuman force. There is no extrahuman wonders and mighty epiphanies. There is no fighting against demons like Schwarzenegger with an Uzi gun.

There is no big hero. There is no triumphant salvator. There is no magic. There is no wiping away of problems. There is no heavenly wish uncle. There is no protection from difficult situations by a heavenly problem solver.”
Now while God never promised us that we would have no problems, He did say He would be our protection and strength, and while He was on Earth Jesus most definitely battled demons.
And what this post does in trying to sooth say the Omnipotence of God by overplaying His humanity while in human form, is downplay His eventual judgement and our responsibility to His Holiness. If He was indeed this fragile man who so easily identified with humans during His time here He would not have been put to death and there would have been no reason for Him to have been put to death, (by the Jewish standard I mean.) His humility to the Father as I said was again only for our example. If you check the words attributed to Him they were not so humble—as one would expect from God in the flesh.

Your disrespect, or at least distaste for Biblese, does not justify castrating our Lord and Savior. That is one of His titles. Do not forget He is not just our Savior, He is Lord! This implies a certain amount of fear and utmost respect. What T’s statements do is render this Man impotent to fulfill the purpose for which He was sent.

Now as to your own statements, I agree with the placing of responsibility upon us and have no dispute with your evaluation of how Christ demonstrated this in His life. And of course I do not refute the general theme of the New Testament, (or the promise of this in the Old) that GOD BECAME HUMAN! What I do refute is that God was the cause of Job’s suffering AND that He was unjust in ANY way by allowing it. What you are seeing from a human perspective do to your empathy for humanity, (which is honorable of course brother) is in reality a deep lesson in blind trust of the Creator regardless of the trials we undergo or the suffering we endure. To even bring the stories of Job into this is beyond the subject at hand in my opinion.

As far as your closing statements go, this is where you have most definitely strayed and do not truly know the God who speaks to us through Biblese. (By the way not saying I know Him better than you, just saying you have misspoke in this case.
“The difference of the god of the old testament and the new is perfect evidence of this.

The wholesale changes in gods personality are due to the wholesale changes in human psychology. Which by extension, called forth Jesus from the Ether, as it always does. The ether is the womb of the virgin.
Malachi 3:6: "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."
29 “And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind” (1 Samuel 15:29).
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Why is God so different in the Old Testament than He is in the New Testament?

________________________________________

Question: "Why is God so different in the Old Testament than He is in the New Testament?"

Answer: At the very heart of this question lies a fundamental misunderstanding of what both the Old and New Testaments reveal about the nature of God. Another way of expressing this same basic thought is when people say, “The God of the Old Testament is a God of wrath while the God of the New Testament is a God of love.” The fact that the Bible is God’s progressive revelation of Himself to us through historical events and through His relationship with people throughout history might contribute to misconceptions about what God is like in the Old Testament as compared to the New Testament. However, when one reads both the Old and the New Testaments, it becomes evident that God is not different from one testament to another and that God’s wrath and His love are revealed in both testaments.

(Exodus 34:6 Numbers 14:18 Deuteronomy 4:31 Nehemiah 9:17 Psalm 86:5, 15; 108:4; 145:8 Joel 2:13(John 3:16 Hebrews 12:6 tells us that “the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.”

(Romans 1:18). So, clearly, God is no different in the Old Testament than He is in the New Testament. God by His very nature is immutable (unchanging). While we might see one aspect of His nature revealed in certain passages of Scripture more than other aspects, God Himself does not change.
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-different.html
In Christ are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge

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PostSun Sep 25, 2011 12:52 pm » by Spock


lowsix wrote:How were you taught to interpret Job?
(legitimately curious)



I honestly don't remember how I was taught on Job. My experience as a Christian came more from my own interpretation of the Bible, although I do look for help with some of these tough questions.

What happened to me was this:
Sometime during my late teens, after a stint in rehab, I decided to read the Bible. I went through a phase like I believe many Christians go through early on, and I see a lot of it in Megame, where I saw just how bad everyone was. I looked for every detail in others that would be a sign to me that they were being led astray. I saw the faults in my parents, whom I always considered typical Christians, and lived for a while as an "onward Christian Soldier", or so I thought. I tried mercilessly, to be as Christ-like as I could, and in doing so became extremely judgmental of others, basing their lack of dedication against my struggle for Christ perfection.

Then something happened. I fell back into addiction. And having already put my faith in Christ and seeing him reward my perseverance, I felt the sting of being lost and outside the will of God, and could not break the cycle. God had rewarded me for my faith and dedication, but he also was ready to teach me a valuable lesson, which he keeps reminding me periodically. That lesson is that regardless of our deeds, if we are truly in Christ and have faith, that alone is sufficient to be reconciled with the Almighty. Essentially, "Just Breath and Be". And that is what opened me up to an entire new understanding of what it was to be Christian. And that is, just be human.

Romans has always been my favorite book of the Bible, and here is why, I found the love of God in my lowest moment, when I was not able to accept myself or any others, and one verse in Romans turned on the light switch for me and it all made sense.

Romans 4:5 wrote:But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness


That simple verse made me see The Sermon on the Mount and everything in the Bible in an entirely new light.

What it said to me was this. I can be human. Broken, backsliden, and never out of the heart and mind of God. And so can everyone else. The burden of seeing everyone as hopelessly sinful and going to hell in their ignorance, was totally erased. I realized that we were all broken vessels and that is just as God expects us to be, if it were any other way, Christ wouldn't have had a mission.

Which, in a round about way, brings me to my answer for your question. I don't know the answer for the story of Job, because I don't understand. As well as I don't understand why God would wish for Issac to be sacrificed. These are very tough questions. But I realized, that in light of the fact that God is a God of love and oneness, I came to the conclusion that the Creator, living outside of time, is the same today as he has always been, and that does not leave room for a sadistic God, who if he was sadistic and needed say " a Sophia" to tell him he was being a grouch, would not make him a God of love. That logic puts him in a time table which means that at any time he could become just as sadistic, which I don't believe. My faith and understanding of a loving God leaves no room for an evil one that can be tricked by his own creation. If God is flawed in such a way, then who is to say that the entire mission of Jesus wasn't a catastrophic failure for a sick God that just wanted to watch his son sweat blood in the garden hours before his execution.

In that instance, where Jesus is sweating blood from stress, and ultimately crucified, we are given the reason for God allowing that to happen, and it puts things in a different perspective. I don't think we are given the reason for the story of Job and I think that was a story passed down by word of mouth from generation to generation that was to illustrate the faith of Job, and not the fallacy of god. In other words, God is not on trial in this illustration, but the faith of man is and the ultimate message is how we should hold on, even in the midst of turmoil. Job with his boils. Me with my addiction. And each person with their own life trial. That is the message I get from Job, that and that God blessed Job in the end.

And remember too that in the story God was not responsible for Jobs afflictions. Satan was. Satan thought he could disillusion Job so much with God, that he would curse God. When Job questioned God, God reminded Job that He was God and his logic was not God's logic. And as harsh as that seems in the midst of Satan afflicting Job (as happens to people of faith) God tells us, don't let your mind rationalize what is happening as God's will for you - where were we out the foundation of the universe? We don't have the capacity, and in the end - God ultimately rewarded Job exceedingly for enduring the suffering.

When questioning the motives of God, the Creator, one must always keep in mind that God is not a human being. Attributing human characteristics to God (or anything other than a human) is called, anthropomorphizing, which is a grave error of logic. It's an act of folly and a lack of wisdom should we decide that we (God's creation) can "judge" or completely understand the motives God.

So, consider me a Bible babbler or a typical unquestioning or dumb Christian, but understand that us dumb Christians, while finding an interpretation such as Campbell's intriguing and an interesting read, still understand that it is futile to put God in a box of human experience and logic. While Campbell's definition is a wonderful tool for people that must have what they feel is a suitable answer, it's still just Campbell's take on it that he devised to adequately package it for the analytical mind. Which is fine, no harm in being wrong. For either of us or Campbell, because ultimately we are not judged by what parts of the Bible we decide are literal or not, but what we did with Jesus, as stated above in Romans 4:5.

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PostSun Sep 25, 2011 2:28 pm » by Tertiusgaudens


When my closest friend died of multiple sclerosis, we both were 27, I was with him. I almost puked, he looked like a terrible skeleton, only bones and skin, a big skull with big eyes looking at me, and he was unable to eat anymore. I hold his hands and looked into his eyes. Then he wispered: Jesus knows me in this. And he folded his hands and asked me to pray. 30 minutes later he passed away.

See, the speaking of a Jesue figure is only deep when speaking of a Jesus crucifixus, a man that died on the cross: suffering, tears, blood, desparation, last bresth, Eli, eli lama sabachtani. A human. A son. A brother. A lover. A disappointed one. A forgiver. An entity being made of soil and water.

Paul`s approach of saying, this man is a vessel of the living God is one thing. Many other figures in different religions did say the same. But Paul spoke of kenosis - in this man God incarnated as deus incarnatus, the incarnated God. Kenosis in this regard is a term helping believers to catch the obvious - homo Jesus as deus incarnatus, even in Jesus crucifixus: the human Jesus as incarnated God, even in the crucified Jesus. Thus crucifixion becomes the mark of the followers - seeing even the dark sides of being human. Now you know, what the mark of the beast is.

And those dark sides are more than present and vivid. A holy-God-concept is preliminarily looking for the best, the highest, the precious, the good, the lightful, the sinless. And the other sides? Blood, tears, sins and sweat? Is that unholy, profane?

Low`s explanation is following that path. Why should I sit with a person dying? Why should I wipe away puke and puss and shit of a dying man? Paul would say, according his Jesus understanding, that exactly this is holy. A human is holy. Passion is holy. Life is holy. Dying is holy. Loving is holy. Seeing Jesus in one of the low ones is holy.

Do you really think, God is a positive thinker? An always smiling clown? Or the opposite - a grumbling old guy? Someone, who is absolutely sensitive to strike back?

A God concept thinking of God being a higher being deserving respect is an old one leading to humiliate people. They look up to a thing they never can reach. The concept of God being in a human even untill passion and death is the opposite - there is nothing to reach, nothing to gain, nothing to fight for. Instead, there is a silant voice calling people simply to follow: if you have trouble with a God concept, look to Jesus the human, embrace humanity and live it and see what happens, and deny no side of it, and find God not in higher being, but lower humanity!

I tell you, if you do that, there is no disrespect, there is no absense of a divine knowledge, that all is connected, there is no absense of love anymore despite - all dark sides.

Often people say, fuck, where is God claiming many have lost their faith. But I know many people, who have gone through darkness and speak of God and Jesus and Buddha and grace. They get mean once in a while, but bear the witness they are always parts of God.

What is faith other than letting things go as they want? Is faith not also a gift? Is faith saying to God I adore you, while you deny living and loving humans? Has faith something to gain? Is not faith like breathing in and out? Does not faith consist of LIVING, SIMPLY LIVING AS HUMAN? And is it not true, that all other is in the care of God?

No, we are not and never left on our own to hurdle through the hostile universe on this rock, as Spock said. We have never separated from God except by thinking, we are and by thinking, we are autonome ones thrown by chance into this world, alone, fucked and being lost.

The concept of God became human thus is so difficult, because it is so simple and close. Brecht has right, when he said: First comes fodder, than comes morality. This sounds mean as humans sound mean, of course. But it is the sanctuary God has chosen to live. And this story is told by Jesus...
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PostSun Sep 25, 2011 2:47 pm » by Edgarrothstein


tertiusgaudens wrote:
Low`s explanation is following that path. Why should I sit with a person dying? Why should I wipe away puke and puss and shit of a dying man? Paul would say, according his Jesus understanding, that exactly this is holy. A human is holy. Passion is holy. Life is holy. Dying is holy. Loving is holy. Seeing Jesus in one of the low ones is holy.



But why do we need Jesus here?
Isn't that achievable sans Jesus?
Mixing Jesus with human compassion seems unnecessary to me.

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PostSun Sep 25, 2011 2:56 pm » by Spock


edgarrothstein wrote:But why do we need Jesus here?
Isn't that achievable sans Jesus?
Mixing Jesus with human compassion seems unnecessary to me.



I don't think so. Jesus gives us unity and something to strive to be like. Being just human we strive to fulfill the hunger of our ego alone.

We all answer to a higher power, whether that be a righteous God or fallible Egos.

Humans trying to work together to show compassion equals NATO. An Agnostic and humanistic failure.

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PostSun Sep 25, 2011 3:00 pm » by Edgarrothstein


spock wrote:
edgarrothstein wrote:But why do we need Jesus here?
Isn't that achievable sans Jesus?
Mixing Jesus with human compassion seems unnecessary to me.



I don't think so. Jesus gives us unity and something to strive to be like. Being just human we strive to fulfill the hunger of our ego alone.

We all answer to a higher power, whether that be a righteous God or fallible Egos.

Humans trying to work together to show compassion equals NATO. An Agnostic and humanistic failure.


Yes. For believers He does.
But what about non-believers?
Which higher power they consider for a role-model?
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