The Presumptuousness of Atheism

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PostThu May 03, 2012 4:06 am » by Truthdefender


Seahawk100 wrote:I was raised Roman Catholic, until at around age 12 or 13, I decided that I wasn't so sure. I was lucky enough to have parents that allowed me to do so, without any repercussions. No anger, no sadness, no imploring me to change- or else. They just accepted it as something I had to decide for myself. They even suggested that I explore other religions, attend other churches- which I did. Up until my parents passed, we peacefully co-existed, and never had any issues with each other for our individual beliefs. We discussed it many times, over the years, and we never judged each other.

After all these years, I have still not really leaned one way or the other, with any significance. Sometimes, I slip one way or the other, but for some reason, don't have any problems with that viewpoint. Sometimes, I even find comfort in it. lol. Maybe that's strange, but I've managed- I think- to turn out to be a fairly decent guy. (Not always, but usually.) I think that having my parents support my fence sitting, without judgement, contributed to that in a big way. I know of families that have been torn apart from that very situation, but I was never once made to feel that I was not loved- for any reason. I was never once made to feel inadequate, or eternally damned for my choices.

I don't understand why the believers and the non-believers have to- at times- have so much animosity towards each other. I do know that the bible does have some "good" things in it. I do remember that it says something about judging others. I thought that was only God's right to do so.

Anyway, it would be kinda nicer if the believers and non-believers could just leave each other alone about it, and let them choose what they want for themselves, and let them live in their own peace, with their choices.

That said, I do consider myself a "spiritual" person. And I do believe that there may indeed be some higher power, or powers. I'm just not sure what it is, or where it came from, or came about. I would like to know for sure, but I don't. For now, at least, I feel okay with that. I think that if there is a God, he will understand.

Just my 2 cents.



Excellent share bro! Thanks.
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PostThu May 03, 2012 4:20 am » by Sp00kyWhiz


Seahawk100 I totally agree with the last part of your last post , I believe there is some kind of higher power but we selfish humans have no clue as to what it is ..... Once thing about organized religion that gets me is this , Now if God created Adam first and then created Eve from Adams rib then they would be genetically similar like brother and sister so interbreeding would cause nothing but deformed children and our species would not have made it this far . I once asked a christian this and he said " Well then God must have made them different so this couldnt happen " .... Well that makes no sense because he did not intend for them to mate and create all this mess . Just like breeding dogs you can successfully breed mom and son and father and daughter without issues , But once you breed brother and sister its to close to a genetic match and causes problems ..... I smell bullshit !!!!!

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PostThu May 03, 2012 5:04 am » by Evildweeb


Though I generally refuse to chime in on religious topics (only because it is a lose-lose situation), I for some strange reason had to jump in on this one.

This is my opinion, only my opinion, and is not endorsed by anyone else here or anywhere else (that I know of).

The OP title of the thread - The Presumptuousness of Atheism was both intriguing and what brought me in here.

If this were posted by a non-religious non-atheist (or what we can call an agnostic) then the title would be appropriate.

Unfortunately, it appears the condescension of atheism by any religious entity, organization, person or persons, is in itself presumptuous.

This site, DTV, accepts all beliefs, theories, agendas, personal situations real or imagined, points of view (POV), and many variations of each. The discourse is open and free to all.

Now.........................

Having spent some time in many philosophies - christianity, mormonism, judaism, roman catholicism (yes, it is a religion unto itself), and some other odd little directions, it has come to my attention over a vast amount of time that for some odd reason I fail to fathom, christian right wing fundamentalism appears to have more problems with other religions than the other religions have with them. And this is a puzzle to me.

I was under the mistaken belief that a person's belief in god, as well as faith, were more important than none.

That's not to say that atheists do not have faith. They have faith, believe me, in many things.

So before the rain of dissent and anarchy comes descending down here to this post, understand one small thing.

Atheists no more came crawling out of the womb any more than christians did, no more than muslims, no more than buddhists, no more than satanists.

One becomes what one becomes simply from a specific set of personal circumstances and unique to each person, period.

Like it or not, it might not be YOUR way, it might be down YOUR path, but regardless of the path to the current acceptance, it is also neither your right to condemn or attack anyone because they do not believe exactly as you do.

This is why we have so many problems right now with one particular religion (whom I will leave nameless as that is not the point).

I only wish all of you, my brothers and sisters here in this place with like-minded interests and concerns for our world could FFS get past the BS over who believes what.

I could probably write another 20 pages to this but for the sake of the mods and the general population I will end here.

For god's sake, stop - you'll thank me later.

cheers and peace

:cheers:

:pray: :pray: :pray:
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PostThu May 03, 2012 7:16 am » by Daemonfoe


Sp00kyWhiz wrote:Now if God created Adam first and then created Eve from Adams rib then they would be genetically similar like brother and sister


Well... that's a bit of an assumption. God is supposed to be all powerful and all knowing, and Adam and Eve are both supposed to be creations of God, so one would assume God knows what will happen with inbreeding, and would simply just create the problem away for this instance. But then having said that, why does good need Adam's rib to create Eve in the first place?

I'm not trying to bash religion here, just saying, if you want to counter it, you gotta make a better argument.
The two choices we have are something starting from nothing, or something existing infinitely. These are both paradoxes. The existence of everything is therefore a paradox. -daemonfoe

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PostThu May 03, 2012 8:57 am » by Fatdogmendoza


I thought that most of the organized religions particularly christianity were founded on the fear of their god, particularly christianity were you are already born guilty of something called the original sin..Original sin is, according to a Christian theological doctrine, humanity's state of sin ... which humans are born, distinct from the actual sins that a person commits..How do we become absolved from that original sin, the Sacrament of Baptism which effectively removes original sin, along with all other types of sin.. Is that not presumptuous in its supposition that all people who do not recieve baptism are still sinners...

Since even newly conceived infants are subject to death, We continue to be born with original sin.
Original sin remains a fact of our human condition, at least until Jesus comes again at the end of the age, and utterly destroys (not simply defeats) the forces of evil.
Again another presumtion unless I am missing the facts somewhere.....

I prefer the spirituality without the religous dogma of being born into repentance and fear...

faith, presumption...presumption, faith :headscratch:

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PostThu May 03, 2012 11:07 am » by Spock


Fatdogmendoza wrote:How do we become absolved from that original sin, the Sacrament of Baptism which effectively removes original sin, along with all other types of sin.. Is that not presumptuous in its supposition that all people who do not recieve baptism are still sinners...

Since even newly conceived infants are subject to death, We continue to be born with original sin.
Original sin remains a fact of our human condition, at least until Jesus comes again at the end of the age, and utterly destroys (not simply defeats) the forces of evil.
Again another presumtion unless I am missing the facts somewhere.....

I prefer the spirituality without the religous dogma of being born into repentance and fear...

faith, presumption...presumption, faith :headscratch:



Concerning baptism, that's not what it is for - to wash away sins. Baptism is not a requirement for salvation. It is something you do as an outward statement of an inner change. Baptism actually signifies death, and rebirth. There are some in the Christian faith that believe baptism is a requirement for salvation, but they are wrong. When Jesus hung on the cross between the 2 thieves, the one asked Jesus to remember him when he entered into paradise. Jesus did not say to him, sorry brah, you're gonna have to climb down and go be baptized first. No, he said to him, "Today, you will walk with me in paradise". The thief's belief that Jesus would conquer death counted him as righteous.

As well, salvation does not make someone not sin. Accepting Christ as Lord and accepting the gift of his sacrifice as atonement for sin is what washes the stain of sin away. When the Holy Spirit dwells in the person after accepting the gift, it is manifested in the conscience. The person may go on in their sin, but the spirit aches as the conscience convicts the person. People still deal with addictions, lusts and every other destructive thing that was apparent before conversion, but the will of that person changes and the spirit inwardly convicts them of the wrongfulness of that nature. Some people are delivered in an instant, some people struggle for years, some people are never set free - but in the long run, all circumstances work towards fulfilling a spiritual need within that person. Pride/ego being the root of sin, some things persist in order that a person not be boastful, or some other reason.

A common fault of many Christians is judging others against their own perceived level of righteousness. This is arrogant and wrong. When people do this, they reason within themselves that because they do not struggle with a certain thing, it is unforgivable that someone else should, and these people lack empathy for the other, and that lack of empathy would be a greater sin.

When talking about judging, it is that people will be judge directly according the the level they judged others. It's not that people are not to know what is wrong, or are not to have a position on issues. We are just people, fallible, and like broken vessels. Each of us is like a clay pot that has been cracked and put back together again. Our cracks make us unique and beautiful, and distinctly different from each other.

I notice concerning this forum, that people are attacked and belittled for giving their Christian perspective. People rush to say something along the lines of "don't shove your religion down our throats", when in actuality, the Christian is not, they are merely giving their input from a perspective of having Christ at the forefront of their decisions. The ones that most forcefully "shove their religion down people's throats" are the ones that forcefully ridicule, alienate, belittle and troll. If any person of faith did that concerning others perspective the uproar is deafening, as has been proven time and again. And we don't allow it, as mods, to go on. But I see people that claim no faith, being just as rude as any of the most charismatic of fundamentalist.

I have always said that agnosticism is the most rational of beliefs. I as well was one, which leaned more towards the side of a God. There are others would fall on the other side of the fence, but still realize and can not deny there is a very real possibility that there is a God. So in that regard, concerning atheism, I believe the OP is spot on.

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PostThu May 03, 2012 3:04 pm » by Fatdogmendoza


Spock wrote:
Fatdogmendoza wrote:How do we become absolved from that original sin, the Sacrament of Baptism which effectively removes original sin, along with all other types of sin.. Is that not presumptuous in its supposition that all people who do not recieve baptism are still sinners...

Since even newly conceived infants are subject to death, We continue to be born with original sin.
Original sin remains a fact of our human condition, at least until Jesus comes again at the end of the age, and utterly destroys (not simply defeats) the forces of evil.
Again another presumtion unless I am missing the facts somewhere.....

I prefer the spirituality without the religous dogma of being born into repentance and fear...

faith, presumption...presumption, faith :headscratch:



Concerning baptism, that's not what it is for - to wash away sins. Baptism is not a requirement for salvation. It is something you do as an outward statement of an inner change. Baptism actually signifies death, and rebirth. There are some in the Christian faith that believe baptism is a requirement for salvation, but they are wrong. When Jesus hung on the cross between the 2 thieves, the one asked Jesus to remember him when he entered into paradise. Jesus did not say to him, sorry brah, you're gonna have to climb down and go be baptized first. No, he said to him, "Today, you will walk with me in paradise". The thief's belief that Jesus would conquer death counted him as righteous.

As well, salvation does not make someone not sin. Accepting Christ as Lord and accepting the gift of his sacrifice as atonement for sin is what washes the stain of sin away. When the Holy Spirit dwells in the person after accepting the gift, it is manifested in the conscience. The person may go on in their sin, but the spirit aches as the conscience convicts the person. People still deal with addictions, lusts and every other destructive thing that was apparent before conversion, but the will of that person changes and the spirit inwardly convicts them of the wrongfulness of that nature. Some people are delivered in an instant, some people struggle for years, some people are never set free - but in the long run, all circumstances work towards fulfilling a spiritual need within that person. Pride/ego being the root of sin, some things persist in order that a person not be boastful, or some other reason.

A common fault of many Christians is judging others against their own perceived level of righteousness. This is arrogant and wrong. When people do this, they reason within themselves that because they do not struggle with a certain thing, it is unforgivable that someone else should, and these people lack empathy for the other, and that lack of empathy would be a greater sin.

When talking about judging, it is that people will be judge directly according the the level they judged others. It's not that people are not to know what is wrong, or are not to have a position on issues. We are just people, fallible, and like broken vessels. Each of us is like a clay pot that has been cracked and put back together again. Our cracks make us unique and beautiful, and distinctly different from each other.

I notice concerning this forum, that people are attacked and belittled for giving their Christian perspective. People rush to say something along the lines of "don't shove your religion down our throats", when in actuality, the Christian is not, they are merely giving their input from a perspective of having Christ at the forefront of their decisions. The ones that most forcefully "shove their religion down people's throats" are the ones that forcefully ridicule, alienate, belittle and troll. If any person of faith did that concerning others perspective the uproar is deafening, as has been proven time and again. And we don't allow it, as mods, to go on. But I see people that claim no faith, being just as rude as any of the most charismatic of fundamentalist.

I have always said that agnosticism is the most rational of beliefs. I as well was one, which leaned more towards the side of a God. There are others would fall on the other side of the fence, but still realize and can not deny there is a very real possibility that there is a God. So in that regard, concerning atheism, I believe the OP is spot on.


I hope I am not belittling anyone for their christian beliefs, been there seen it done it and found that it wasnt to be my route of choice towards spiritual and personal enlightenment. I hope that all I am guilty of is opening up a healthy line of debate....I have been, at a point in my life where I did attack individuals personal faith in a god, even early days on this forum, but faith works for a few people who work hard to make it do so for them... I dont talk from ignorance but from experience, If you havent tasted double malt you cant honestly say that you dont like the taste,you can only make an assumption even if that assumption is an educated one......My opinion from my personal experience... :flop: :cheers:

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