The Scientific Case Against Evolution

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PostFri Oct 05, 2012 10:38 pm » by Truthdefender


Poooooot wrote:
Buzzsaw wrote:Personally I think the whole debate has become too polarized, with those for and against falling into two camps snarling at each other over the battlelines throwing increaslingly spurious arguments at each other. What bothers me is how the whole argument does need to be looked into as there are some serious flaws, but the moment you suggest this you get labelled a creatonist or a crazy. Being a gambler, I deal with odds and probabilities and in both arguments the odds strike me as far too high to be plausable. When I first told a bloke I didnt believe in evolution he got really angry, and I asked if it was compulsary these days to believe in it. I look at it from a Hegelian/Bauman/Foucaldian view, all knowledge is fluid and changing, and todays theories are tomorrows jokes. But just becaue I dont believe it doesnt make me crazy...

I don't think they're crazy. :) It is yours, and their, right to believe or not believe, and I respect people beliefs, even if I don't share them. But, when someone lies and/or twists and manipulates facts in order to fit their agenda, that's where I have a problem. If you don't believe in evolution because your God tells you otherwise, then state that. Don't say "well a monkey didn't give birth to a human so evolution is not real."


I believe you were the one who stated this. As well as use the derogatory quote to put me, or creationists in a box. You really should say something more along the lines of, "You have the right to believe what you want, even if that makes you an idiot, oh, and expect ridicule." :D


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PostFri Oct 05, 2012 10:41 pm » by Truthdefender


Richc wrote:
Truthdefender wrote:
Richc wrote:A Virus makes a Human ill.

Human kills the Virus with Antibiotics.

The Virus comes back and makes a Human ill again.

The Human uses the same Antibiotic to kill the Virus...

But wait...

This time the Virus is not killed. It has become amune to the Antibiotic.

It has changed, mutated.

Has it evolved.? Isn't that evolution at the smallest scale.?

RIK


Micro yes, adaptation. But this virus will still be in the same 'family' of viruses from which it originated before building up its own antibodies to to protect it from antibiotics, no?


Well yes but lets not lose the meaning of Evolution....

Evolution - noun
1.
any process of formation or growth; development: the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane.
2.
a product of such development; something evolved: The exploration of space is the evolution of decades of research.
3.
Biology . change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.

4.
a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions.

5.
a motion incomplete in itself, but combining with coordinated motions to produce a single action, as in a machine.

Are you saying that to Evolve means to change from one thing to something completely different.?

RIK


This is what evolution science proposes is it not? From single cells to consciousness. From goo to you, by way of the zoo, right?

@ Poooooot, finches are finches, no matter the variety, yes?
Last edited by Truthdefender on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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PostFri Oct 05, 2012 10:42 pm » by Seriouscitizen


Seriouscitizen wrote:
Evolution is not something that happens overnight. It is never stated that one species was born of another. You should check out this infographic:
http://evogeneao.com/images/Evo_large.gif

or even this one:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... fe_SVG.svg

If you are choosing to believe your faith over science, that is your right, but you cannot sit here and claim that science is wrong just because it does not fit into your ideological beliefs.


Nor am i saying that one species is born out of another, am I? Please read carefully. I look into the links tho. And also I agree on that evolution is the same as ADAPTION to me.. My mother teaches biology in highschool and I have attented some readings on the subject. I'm just not convinced. Its in my nature to not create a personal belief dogma if something is off. Sorry. But it might as well change after i saw those links in that case i will comment on that. exciting


poooot you are aware that a diagram with different types of chlamydia and other STD-like names isn't going to make it any clearer to me are you? .. I am a visual thinker, its hard for me to understand it when its presented in a lineair matter like that. But i'm still open to convinced...Maybe another day

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PostFri Oct 05, 2012 10:48 pm » by Truthdefender


Poooooot wrote:Even under this very post, in related topics, is a case study:

Abyssdnb wrote:Tibetans live at altitudes of 13,000 feet, breathing air that has 40 percent less oxygen than is available at sea level, yet suffer very little mountain sickness. The reason, according to a team of biologists in China, is human evolution, in what may be the most recent and fastest instance detected so far. Comparing the genomes of Tibetans and Han Chinese, the majority ethnic group in China, the biologists found that at least 30 genes had undergone evolutionary change in the Tibetans as they adapted to life on the high plateau. Tibetans and Han Chinese split apart as recently as 3,000 years ago, say the biologists, a group at the Beijing Genomics Institute led by Xin Yi and Jian Wang. The report appears in Friday’s issue of Science.

If confirmed, this would be the most recent known example of human evolutionary change. Until now, the most recent such change was the spread of lactose tolerance — the ability to digest milk in adulthood — among northern Europeans about 7,500 years ago. But archaeologists say that the Tibetan plateau was inhabited much earlier than 3,000 years ago and that the geneticists’ date is incorrect.

fastest-case-of-evolution-recorded-t25912.html

And I even did you the favor of finding the original source article
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/scien ... .html?_r=0


Well if we are going to present adapting to extreme environments as a proof positive for evolution, then along these same lines, the man who trains everyday for two years to run a marathon, thus gaining the ability to thrive with less oxygen, (or use oxygen more proficiently) would then become the fastest instance of evolution thus far. As would the man who smokes weed everyday as he can now endure high amounts of THC with less effect, whilst a newer smoker would be stoned off his ass. Is this evolution? No this is adaptation, tolerance creating change in the bodies ability to metabolize a substance. Or in the case of the Tibetans, their bodies, i.e. their lungs have become more proficient at extracting oxygen due to necessity.


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PostFri Oct 05, 2012 10:59 pm » by Richc


Truthdefender wrote:
This is what evolution science proposes is it not? From single cells to consciousness. From goo to you, by way of the zoo, right?



Yes and that is totally feasible as far as i am concerned...

A Human is made up of Billions of single cells.
So one single cell to billions of connected cells isn't extraordinary at all.

Cells split and replicate. During the replication, various forms are tried and retried. Evolution.

You can see it under a microscope with bacteria. Leave bacteria for 1 million years and you might end up with enough cells connected together to make a walking, talking reproducing Humanoid.

As for consciousness.. The first person to bottle that will be rich.

We don't know what it is. Maybe its just a by product of a living and thinking being.?

Consciousness probably exists without biology.?

Sure i don't know. :headscratch:

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PostFri Oct 05, 2012 11:09 pm » by Richc


There is a very fine line between adaptation and evolution.

Some may argue they are the same thing.

The Tibetans might be undergoing local evolution.

And their offspring won't need to adapt as their genes will already be right for the enviroment they live in.

This is a very good debate... :hugging:

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PostFri Oct 05, 2012 11:23 pm » by Truthdefender


I do believe consciousness exists without biology, or at least biology as we know it, but that's for another day. :cheers:


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PostFri Oct 05, 2012 11:28 pm » by Richc


Truthdefender wrote:I do believe consciousness exists without biology, or at least biology as we know it, but that's for another day. :cheers:


:cheers: Truth....

At the end of the day you and me and everyone else just needs to believe what we think is the truth.
We don't need to convince anyone else at all. We don't need to agree.

We're not getting paid are we... :lol:

:hugging:

PS... If we were all the same and believed the same stuff it would be one big boring World...

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PostFri Oct 05, 2012 11:48 pm » by Daemonfoe


What I think a lot of anti-evolutionists fail to understand is that the theory of evolution does not try to say, "God didn't create all of existence." Even if God is real and everything was created by him/it, evolution still takes place, like it or not.

Evolution is based only off one simple concept. Offspring are born with the majority of their genes matching their parent with a few tiny mutations. Those mutations slightly affect the survival and breeding rate of those offspring in their environment. The offspring that are able to survive long enough and breed, carry the majority of their genes on to the next generation, including the slight mutations that they had.

During this process there are other mutations that happened unregulated from the environment because they were moot during the process of weeding out mutations that ill-effected the survival/breed capabilities.

In an extreme environment change, these other mutations that were previously moot come into play. Some of them help or hinder the survival/breed rate in this new environment. An extreme environment change may be the loss of forestry, a change in temperature, newly introduced predators, extinction of a food source. An even more extreme change of environment may affect what an animal breathes to obtain oxygen. Look at amphibians. They are the perfect example of species that breath both air and water, able to branch off to either, and over time, could lose either the ability to breath air or water depending on the environment.
The two choices we have are something starting from nothing, or something existing infinitely. These are both paradoxes. The existence of everything is therefore a paradox. -daemonfoe

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PostFri Oct 05, 2012 11:55 pm » by Richc


Daemonfoe wrote:Even if God is real and everything was created by him/it, evolution still takes place, like it or not.


Im so glad you posted this because guess what my next post was going to be......?

This....

What if God created existance and the abillity for it to evolve with free will.

So both theories are correct so why the big fight..? :flop:

RIK
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