The SOUL Just exactly when does the SOUL begin?

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PostThu Aug 16, 2012 11:52 pm » by Noentry


My beliefs leads me to presume the soul is the vessel of universal consciousness (the spirit) that is life.

the soul is the universe giving life energy to the individual.

It is not the soul that is immortal it is the spirit of the universe that is.

As I understand it.

God is all the universe.
The spirit is the life force.
And the soul is the vessel of the life force(spirit).
Is the soul immortal? I would say no.
I believe life/spirit is God/universe experiencing infinity from within and the spirit and the soul is that mechanism.
That is why we have free will.
Once it has served its purpose, it no longer has purpose and it rejoins the spirit as one.
A soul could be trillions of years old but in the end it will become one with all that is and no longer be individual.

So the soul started when God/universe decided it wanted to experience infinite choice.

hurtswhenipee excellent question :flop:
"The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority.
The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority.
The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking."
A. A. Milne

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PostFri Aug 17, 2012 12:20 am » by Shemagh


Somewhere in England there is a gravestone which reads,

"I lie here knowing, what the greatest minds alive do not know"

Meaning, I now know what happens next.

The answer to your question is...we don't know.

We have our belief systems in this life (all kinds of them) and hopefully they give people comfort.

But really, on the spiritual side of things, we will know when we die!

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PostFri Aug 17, 2012 12:58 am » by Rich316


Noentry wrote:My beliefs leads me to presume the soul is the vessel of universal consciousness (the spirit) that is life.

the soul is the universe giving life energy to the individual.

It is not the soul that is immortal it is the spirit of the universe that is.

As I understand it.

God is all the universe.
The spirit is the life force.
And the soul is the vessel of the life force(spirit).
Is the soul immortal? I would say no.
I believe life/spirit is God/universe experiencing infinity from within and the spirit and the soul is that mechanism.
That is why we have free will.
Once it has served its purpose, it no longer has purpose and it rejoins the spirit as one.
A soul could be trillions of years old but in the end it will become one with all that is and no longer be individual.

So the soul started when God/universe decided it wanted to experience infinite choice.

hurtswhenipee excellent question :flop:


I tend to agree there Noentry. I think the body and the DNA is the vehicle in this plane for the soul to experience awareness - based on karmic buildup over past lives, good and bad deeds etc.

The brain I see seperate but obviously an important vehicle for consciousnes to take hold thru.

The infinite spark - the body/brain/nervous system are like electrical appliances and wiring - without that spark, they do not operate.

This is very interesting.. From http://www.near-death.com/experiences/buddhism04.html
I see buddhism as one of the only 'religions' in the world that deal with all this in great detail:

Buddha accepted the basic Hindu doctrines of reincarnation and karma, as well as the notion that the ultimate goal of the religious life is to escape the cycle of death and rebirth. Buddha asserted that what keeps us bound to the death/rebirth process is desire, desire in the sense of wanting or craving anything in the world. Hence, the goal of getting off the Ferris wheel of reincarnation necessarily involves freeing oneself from desire. Nirvana is the Buddhist term for liberation. Nirvana literally means extinction, and it refers to the extinction of all craving, an extinction that allows one to become liberated.

Where Buddha departed most radically from Hinduism was in his doctrine of "anatta", the notion that individuals do not possess eternal souls. Instead of eternal souls, individuals consist of a "bundle" of habits, memories, sensations, desires, and so forth, which together delude one into thinking that he or she consists of a stable, lasting self. Despite its transitory nature, this false self hangs together as a unit, and even reincarnates in body after body. In Buddhism, as well as in Hinduism, life in a corporeal body is viewed negatively, as the source of all suffering. Hence, the goal is to obtain release. In Buddhism, this means abandoning the false sense of self so that the bundle of memories and impulses disintegrates, leaving nothing to reincarnate and hence nothing to experience pain.

From the perspective of present-day, world-affirming Western society, the Buddhist vision cannot but appear distinctly unappealing: Not only is this life portrayed as unattractive, the prospect of nirvana, in which one dissolves into nothingness, seems even less desirable. A modern-day Buddha might respond, however, that our reaction to being confronted with the dark side of life merely shows how insulated we are from the pain and suffering that is so fundamental to human existence.

Following death, according to Tibetan Buddhism, the spirit of the departed goes through a process lasting forty-nine days that is divided into three stages called "bardos." At the conclusion of the bardo, the person either enters nirvana or returns to Earth for rebirth.

It is imperative that the dying individual remain fully aware for as long as possible because the thoughts one has while passing over into death heavily influence the nature of both the after-death experience and, if one fails to achieve nirvana, the state of one's next incarnation.

Stage one of the Bardo (called the "Chikai" Bardo), the bardo of dying, begins at death and extends from half a day to four days. This is the period of time necessary for the departed to realize that they have dropped the body. The consciousness of the departed has an ecstatic experience of the primary "Clear White Light" at the death moment. Everyone gets at least a fleeting glimpse of the light. The more spiritually developed see it longer, and are able to go beyond it to a higher level of reality. The average person, however, drops into the lesser state of the secondary "clear light."

In stage two (called the "Chonyid" Bardo), the bardo of Luminous Mind, the departed encounters the hallucinations resulting from the karma created during life. Unless highly developed, the individual will feel that they are still in the body. The departed then encounters various apparitions, the "peaceful" and "wrathful" deities, that are actually personifications of human feelings and that, to successfully achieve nirvana, the deceased must encounter unflinchingly. Only the most evolved individuals can skip the bardo experience altogether and transit directly into a paradise realm. Stage three (called the "Sidpa" Bardo), the bardo of rebirth, is the process of reincarnation.
---------

My take is you can exist without a body, the consciousness is your awareness, this is retained if one is highly trained to become awake when the death of the body occurs. Most people do not realise what is going on at death and go thru the normal reincarnation cycle based on karmic buildup (Which governs what womb you are reborn into) But those who accept/lose all craving etc do go onto higher realms in the spirit world. It is the slaying of the ego, the only thing that keeps us here is the desire, but when the ego is removed, it is a blissful experience, much like an orgasm - the only time (For a split second) that the ego ceases - you die for a split second at the peak of an orgasm.. So my guess is that is the feeling these higher entities experience, no wonder they're happy! lol, bring it!

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PostFri Aug 17, 2012 1:02 am » by Lowsix


willease666 wrote:“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [air] of life; and man became a living soul” (Gen. 2:7). Man, formed from material dust of the ground, upon breathing air, became a living soul. It does not say man is, or has, an immortal soul. What was formed from material ground became a soul.

The word “soul” is translated from the Hebrew in which Moses wrote, from the word nephesh. The Hebrew nephesh merely means a breathing animal. Three times in the first chapter of Genesis animals are called nephesh: Gen. 1:20, “moving creature” (Hebrew, nephesh); Gen. 1:21, “great whales, and every living creature” (Hebrew, nephesh); Gen. 1:24, “living creature” (Hebrew, nephesh). The translators in translating into the English language used the English word “creature,” but in Genesis 2:7 they translated the same nephesh into the English word “soul”—man became a “living soul” (nephesh).

Therefore the soul is physical, composed of matter, and can die. This is a truth believed by very few denominations, and probably by no other religions.


There is a great reason that so few churches buy into that explanation.

If your "one true church" is telling you that it is that simple..they might not be as honest and upright as you are assuming. Aside from the fact about that "one true church" nonsense..if THEY are making that claim. (you, of course are entitled to your opinion on that)

The etymology of the word is far more complex and fluid than that over-simplification, since the word Nephesh has a LOT of entirely different meanings, based on the context in which it is used.

So to claim it "merely" means body is not true...

Here is a list of the different ways that word has been used.
Only a few of them refer simply to the body.

475 references to 'soul' in the popularly understood context,
compared to only 4 wherein it simply describes a body.

It is clear that it is used for a non-physical trait/capacity/existence/purpose-

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm

The word for "soul" in the Old Testament is nephesh. Nephesh is translated in following ways (the numbers being the number of occurrences of each way):

any 3
appetite 2
beast 2
body 4
breath 1
creature 9
dead 5
dead body 4
desire 4
fish 1
ghost 2
heart 15
hearty 1
herself 2
himself 8
life 117
lust 2
man 3
mind 15
mortally 1
myself 1
one 1
own 1
person 29
pleasure 3
soul 475
thing 2
themselves 3
thyself 1
will 4
would have it 1
yourselves 6

Further explanations of the translation here. And with these resources, you can see why translation isnever as simple, and cut-and-dry as it is made out to be, when advancing a partcular agenda or perspective.

http://www.logosapostolic.org/hebrew_word_studies/5315_nephesh_soul_3.htm

@Rich, great post...

The bardo material is really interesting, and is highly intuitively appealing to me based on my personal experiences near death. My conclusion is that the self really doesnt exist. Simply a mirror of experiences. Although there is some component, a second being, a watcher of sorts that is strictly yours while alive. Its how THAt portion deals with the contents of the life (as the temptations/tortures/monsters etc) within the bardo/or as Sock has mentioned..soul.being a collection of experiences, attitudes and markers of a living person.
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PostFri Aug 17, 2012 1:07 am » by Noentry


Rich316 that was one of the best posts I have read in a very long time.
I hope to hear more from you in the future :cheers:
"The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority.
The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority.
The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking."
A. A. Milne

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PostFri Aug 17, 2012 2:55 am » by Estanislao


If the Pineal Gland is the gateway... after it is developed.

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PostFri Aug 17, 2012 4:37 am » by Hurtswhenipee


There has been a lot of thought and opening up of your feelings expressed here. Thank you for sharing :flop:

The conscious is tricky I think it is part of the spirit. If you lie to someone the first time it really bothers you because you feel deep down in your inner being that it is not right. As time goes on and you commit more lies your consciousness gets dulled and this I feel dims your spirit in ways I can't fully explain. I think once this happens you are never have the same innocence.
Other things are stealing, cheating on a test or your domestic partner, murder and etc.
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PostFri Aug 17, 2012 4:43 am » by Aragajag


I think it is and has been a part of the great all all of the time just the focus and perspectives have changed, the electrical universe and consciousness intertwined to near eternal states. When this happens in a foetus is probably on day 49(not to sure) when the big DMT rush happens, a greater consciousness becoming a newer one sort of like a tree branching out new shoots maybe. Anything being reasoned biblically should take into account that all was pretty much plagerised from histories before and to suit a purpose of the controllers, so you can gain insight possibly from that.
I have no eye deer just musings.
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PostFri Aug 17, 2012 10:35 am » by Svaha


I believe that we have three hearts, mental / emotional / spiritual heart, the mental heart is in the 'head', the emotional in the 'belly', the spiritual in the physical heart.
A little while after we are born the soul enters our body, becomes manifest in our body, 'forms' the basic structure of our three hearts.

I agree with Cornbread / Gurdjieff that you have to earn your soul (from a human perspective) and to 'do' that you first (imo) have to bring the mental and emotional heart to a state of 'peace / balance', before you enter the 'spiritual' heart, the seat of your soul and all beyond that, because if mental and emotional heart are in balance, entering the heart is inevitable, as we become free of attachments we are attracted by the singularity, go beyond physical gravity.

Behind your heart is your 'world', in the begin of this 'world' your soul, before that the oversoul / the world of mankind, before that ....
Follow your bliss(ters) - Joseph Campbell


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