The Sun, HAARP, and Long Echo Delays?

[Chronicnerd Profile]

Just saw this onhttp://www.spaceweather.com and figured this is worth looking into...
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During the geomagnetic storm of Nov. 27th, a brief but intense G2-class event, amateur radio operator Peter Brogl of Fürth, Germany, experienced a strange phenomenon. Forty-six seconds after he transmitted his call sign at 7 MHz, he received an echo of his own transmission. "At first, I thought someone was playing tricks on me," says Brogl, "but I changed frequency, re-keyed my call sign (DK6NP), and got another echo." This went on for more than an hour, enough time for Brogl to make several recordings. First reported in 1927 by Norwegian civil engineer Jørgen Hals, long-delay radio echoes are rare and poorly understood. Unusual propagation conditions linked to solar storms is one of many possible explanations. Radio operators, if you experienced any similar phenomena on Nov. 27th between 1800 UT and 19:30 UT, please report your observations to Peter Brogl for correlation.
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The fact that he changed frequencies is a bit odd... and the fact that it happened so fast is odd too... anyone notice anything unusual...oh...other than the Nov. 28th blackout of SOHOS? (uh...definitely worth looking into this one...the time frame for both oddities is WAY too coincidental)...

If I get time I will post more on this if I find anything...otherwise if anyone else cares to carry this torch and dig around a bit...please do...it is worth looking into...

[Bilbow Profile]

sorry its over my head

[Smokeydog Profile]

same bit over my head too but ill try lol tbh first place i would look is to try and find out if haarp or any of the other facilitys were transmitting that day

[Kalinsaast Profile]

Basically the guy transmitted a signal and it was bounced back in as a delayed echo. He then tried a different frequency and re-transmitted again, and the signal bounced back again.

I would assume that if this happened when during the time that there was a CME burst, the transmitted radio signal had hit it and been reflected back. Because the CME burst was somewhat powerful , maybe it smashed the incoming radio signal to millions of pieces, some being bounced back as a delayed version of the original. Maybe it simply hit the incoming CME burst like a ball hitting a wall. Just an idea.

I definitely think the CME and the signal echo phenomenon is linked.

Thanks for the post

[Smokeydog Profile]

wikipedia says :

History

These echoes were first observed in 1927 by civil engineer Jørgen Hals from his home near Oslo, Norway. Hals had repeatedly observed an unexpected second radio echo with a significant time delay after the primary radio echo ended. Unable to account for this strange phenomenon, he wrote a letter to Norwegian physicist Carl Størmer, explaining the event:

At the end of the summer of 1927 I repeatedly heard signals from the Dutch short-wave transmitting station PCJJ at Eindhoven. At the same time as I heard these I also heard echoes. I heard the usual echo which goes round the Earth with an interval of about 1/7th of a second as well as a weaker echo about three seconds after the principal echo had gone. When the principal signal was especially strong, I suppose the amplitude for the last echo three seconds later, lay between 1/10 and 1/20 of the principal signal in strength. From where this echo comes I cannot say for the present, I can only confirm that I really heard it.[3]

The pair, joined by physicist Balthasar van der Pol[4] researched the echoes for some years, but failed to come up with an explanation. The reason for this is that the effect only occurs sporadically and that the time-delay of the echoes varies dramatically. One would expect that, if these were echoes off some region of the atmosphere or something in space (e.g., the moon) the echoes would exhibit a predictable time delay (the time taken to travel to, and back from, the deflecting entity).[5]

Long delayed echoes have been heard sporadically from the first observations in 1927 and up to our time.

Five likeliest hypotheses

Shlionskiy lists 15 possible natural explanations in two groups: reflections in outer space, and reflections within the Earth's magnetosphere.[6][7] Vidmar and Crawford suggest five of them are the most likely.[8] Sverre Holm, professor of signal processing at the Centre for Imaging, University of Oslo, details those five[9]; in summary,

* Ducting in the Earth's magnetosphere and ionosphere at low HF frequencies (1-4 MHz).[10]. Some similarities with Whistlers.

Signals may pass the ionosphere and then be ducted in the magnetosphere out to a distance of several earth radii over to the opposite hemisphere where they will be reflected on top of the ionosphere. The round-trip time varies with the geomagnetic latitude of the transmitter and is typically in the 140 - 300 ms range. The further North the station, the larger the delay. Due to the short delay, this cannot be considered to be a real long-delayed echo. For completeness it is still included here.

* Travel many times around the world. Signals can travel around the Earth seven times in one second. Such signals are also not uncommon.

"Goodacre [11][12] reports that he pointed his antenna towards the horizon and received his own 28 MHz signal delayed by up to about 9 seconds.... His measurement implies travel up to 65 rounds around the earth." Probably the upper frequency limit for such effects.

The most popular current theory is that the radio signals are trapped between two ionized layers in the atmosphere and then are guided around the world many times over until they fall out of a gap in the bottom layer. (Ducting propagation between air layers in the lower atmosphere is a well-understood phenonemon. See Radio propagation.)

* Mode conversion: Signals couple to plasma waves in the upper ionosphere.

Investigated experimentally by Crawford et. al.; they recorded echoes with delays up to 40 seconds at 5-12 MHz.[8][13].

* Reflection from distant plasma clouds coming originally from the sun.

Freyman [14] did experiments at 9.9 MHz and detected several thousand echoes of delay up to 16 seconds at times when solar plasma probably entered the magnetosphere.

* Non-linearity in addition to mode conversion. Two transmitted signals combine to generate a difference frequency, which travels with a plasma wave, then is converted back.

Could explain amateur VHF/UHF echoes. Hans Rasmussen found echoes delayed by 4.6 seconds at 1296 MHz,[15] Yurek recorded a 5.75 second delay at 432 MHz.[16]

None of these hypotheses can explain everything. Only the first mechanism is well established, and none of the other four are well-established enough to deserve the term "theory". The phenomena are often fleeting and non-repeatable. Our understanding of how the magnetosphere interacts with the solar wind is still evolving.
[edit] Other hypotheses

Some believe that the aurora activity that follows a solar storm is the source of LDEs.

Still others believe that LDEs are double EME (EMEME) reflections, i.e. the signal is reflected by the moon and that reflected signal is reflected by the Earth back to the moon and reflected again by the moon back to the earth.

A small community of people believe the LDEs are transmissions from a Bracewell probe, an artifact of aliens trying to communicate with us by bouncing back our own signals.[1] This concept is also addressed by Holm.[9]
[edit] Deception

It must be kept in mind that it is not easy to identify whether an LDE is 'natural'. Grassman warns: "Attempts at deception can in no case be ruled out, and it is to be feared that less serious radio amateurs contribute to deliberate falsification.... Short transmissions using different frequencies are a relatively simple procedure for excluding potential troublemakers."[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_delayed_echo

also http://www.df5ai.net/Material/articles5.html may be worth a look

[lamonema Profile]

I believe that the particular event in question produced a super or near super luminal shockwave. This hit the planet in mear minutes, the unexpected northern lights in Norway, that was the result. The Sun has awoken to what i believe will be a galactic, solar, and planet changing cyclic event(s) to come. Or something like that

[Otomon Profile]

Basically the guy transmitted a signal and it was bounced back in as a delayed echo. He then tried a different frequency and re-transmitted again, and the signal bounced back again.

I would assume that if this happened when during the time that there was a CME burst, the transmitted radio signal had hit it and been reflected back. Because the CME burst was somewhat powerful , maybe it smashed the incoming radio signal to millions of pieces, some being bounced back as a delayed version of the original. Maybe it simply hit the incoming CME burst like a ball hitting a wall. Just an idea.

I definitely think the CME and the signal echo phenomenon is linked.

Thanks for the post

So the Sun is this server firewall?



And we are the mothafucking virus?

[Kalinsaast Profile]

wikipedia says :

History

These echoes were first observed in 1927 by civil engineer Jørgen Hals from his home near Oslo, Norway. Hals had repeatedly observed an unexpected second radio echo with a significant time delay after the primary radio echo ended. Unable to account for this strange phenomenon, he wrote a letter to Norwegian physicist Carl Størmer, explaining the event:

At the end of the summer of 1927 I repeatedly heard signals from the Dutch short-wave transmitting station PCJJ at Eindhoven. At the same time as I heard these I also heard echoes. I heard the usual echo which goes round the Earth with an interval of about 1/7th of a second as well as a weaker echo about three seconds after the principal echo had gone. When the principal signal was especially strong, I suppose the amplitude for the last echo three seconds later, lay between 1/10 and 1/20 of the principal signal in strength. From where this echo comes I cannot say for the present, I can only confirm that I really heard it.[3]

The pair, joined by physicist Balthasar van der Pol[4] researched the echoes for some years, but failed to come up with an explanation. The reason for this is that the effect only occurs sporadically and that the time-delay of the echoes varies dramatically. One would expect that, if these were echoes off some region of the atmosphere or something in space (e.g., the moon) the echoes would exhibit a predictable time delay (the time taken to travel to, and back from, the deflecting entity).[5]

Long delayed echoes have been heard sporadically from the first observations in 1927 and up to our time.

Five likeliest hypotheses

Shlionskiy lists 15 possible natural explanations in two groups: reflections in outer space, and reflections within the Earth's magnetosphere.[6][7] Vidmar and Crawford suggest five of them are the most likely.[8] Sverre Holm, professor of signal processing at the Centre for Imaging, University of Oslo, details those five[9]; in summary,

* Ducting in the Earth's magnetosphere and ionosphere at low HF frequencies (1-4 MHz).[10]. Some similarities with Whistlers.

Signals may pass the ionosphere and then be ducted in the magnetosphere out to a distance of several earth radii over to the opposite hemisphere where they will be reflected on top of the ionosphere. The round-trip time varies with the geomagnetic latitude of the transmitter and is typically in the 140 - 300 ms range. The further North the station, the larger the delay. Due to the short delay, this cannot be considered to be a real long-delayed echo. For completeness it is still included here.

* Travel many times around the world. Signals can travel around the Earth seven times in one second. Such signals are also not uncommon.

"Goodacre [11][12] reports that he pointed his antenna towards the horizon and received his own 28 MHz signal delayed by up to about 9 seconds.... His measurement implies travel up to 65 rounds around the earth." Probably the upper frequency limit for such effects.

The most popular current theory is that the radio signals are trapped between two ionized layers in the atmosphere and then are guided around the world many times over until they fall out of a gap in the bottom layer. (Ducting propagation between air layers in the lower atmosphere is a well-understood phenonemon. See Radio propagation.)

* Mode conversion: Signals couple to plasma waves in the upper ionosphere.

Investigated experimentally by Crawford et. al.; they recorded echoes with delays up to 40 seconds at 5-12 MHz.[8][13].

* Reflection from distant plasma clouds coming originally from the sun.

Freyman [14] did experiments at 9.9 MHz and detected several thousand echoes of delay up to 16 seconds at times when solar plasma probably entered the magnetosphere.

* Non-linearity in addition to mode conversion. Two transmitted signals combine to generate a difference frequency, which travels with a plasma wave, then is converted back.

Could explain amateur VHF/UHF echoes. Hans Rasmussen found echoes delayed by 4.6 seconds at 1296 MHz,[15] Yurek recorded a 5.75 second delay at 432 MHz.[16]

None of these hypotheses can explain everything. Only the first mechanism is well established, and none of the other four are well-established enough to deserve the term "theory". The phenomena are often fleeting and non-repeatable. Our understanding of how the magnetosphere interacts with the solar wind is still evolving.
[edit] Other hypotheses

Some believe that the aurora activity that follows a solar storm is the source of LDEs.

Still others believe that LDEs are double EME (EMEME) reflections, i.e. the signal is reflected by the moon and that reflected signal is reflected by the Earth back to the moon and reflected again by the moon back to the earth.

A small community of people believe the LDEs are transmissions from a Bracewell probe, an artifact of aliens trying to communicate with us by bouncing back our own signals.[1] This concept is also addressed by Holm.[9]
[edit] Deception

It must be kept in mind that it is not easy to identify whether an LDE is 'natural'. Grassman warns: "Attempts at deception can in no case be ruled out, and it is to be feared that less serious radio amateurs contribute to deliberate falsification.... Short transmissions using different frequencies are a relatively simple procedure for excluding potential troublemakers."[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_delayed_echo

also http://www.df5ai.net/Material/articles5.html may be worth a look

^^Fascinating. It makes me laugh sometimes how scientists think they know how the universe works. They think such things can be explained with quantum physics and the standard model. They convince themselves everything all fits together just perfect. HA!!! They can't even definitively explain small things such as this.

Using these old physics paradigms, we will never progress further than 2075 - 2100. When scientist start to understand the true nature of our reality, i.e the holographic universe, infinite consciousness, the ether etc. Then they can looking at how and why things work, using those methods as a basis. Then progress will be made.

So the Sun is this server firewall?And we are the mothafucking virus?

I wouldn't say that. But if it were. Then yes we would be the motherfucking virus. Seeing as we exterminate our own species via starvation and raping the planet. I'd say the description fits the bill.