The Talmud; Sanhedrin

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PostSun Sep 30, 2012 12:33 pm » by Iwanci


And so we take the bad to one side and make believe that the good parts are the parts we must be interested in?

Nope, sorry friends but when I look at religion I take the good and the bad and add them together...

In my opinion, the bad scriptures cannot be brushed aside, sorry, but if you believe in religous dogma you must take it all or leave it all.

Religion in my opinion was written many years ago when people where fairly dumb (in knowledge and worldy understanding as compared to people of today), and this material was written for those people for those times. To try and adapt it to our times is akin to trying to live life in ancient ways, just doesnt work, and most of what you have been able to read that has brought you to this point would have been outside your reach, ie, you would still be dumb.

So let us not pretend that these religions were all peace and love, they were not. Words were written to control people through fear, words were written to intimidate and to give credence and justification for injustices, this has not changed. The only thing that has altered is that these days the religious followers choose to be selective about what they read and which part they follow, they then feel within their rights to do as they please.

Sorry, I am not singleing out any ONE religion and I am getting sick and tired of hearing the laments of the 'poor' religious people feeling they are being somehow discriminated against due to their belief or histories. Time to unite, grow up and live life according to the rules of your societies.. or simply walk away to another place that feels more comfortable for you and is more tolerant of your belief system.

Sorry, to me all books written by man have nothing to do with god, any god and I cannot see why anyone would follow the rantings written by other men for times so far gone that they will never understand the context. Is it any wonder people around the world are strugging to identify with each other when they cannot even identify with themself?

Time for people to be 'people', all the same, one commonilaty... part of the human race.
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PostSun Sep 30, 2012 2:02 pm » by Phaeton


Iwanci wrote:And so we take the bad to one side and make believe that the good parts are the parts we must be interested in?

Nope, sorry friends but when I look at religion I take the good and the bad and add them together...

In my opinion, the bad scriptures cannot be brushed aside, sorry, but if you believe in religous dogma you must take it all or leave it all.

Do try and be specific Iwanci. What 'bad parts' are you talking about? When you talk of religion, do you mean any given religious congregation or do you mean scripture? When you talk of 'bad scriptures', which scriptures do you mean, or do you mean 'bad verses' within a given scripture? Your terms are so very broad the meaning is multi interpetable and holds very little information - its like saying 'the world's wickedness cannot be brushed aside, the world is evil'. Almost a completely meaningless, diffuse statement.


Religion in my opinion was written many years ago when people where fairly dumb (in knowledge and worldy understanding as compared to people of today), and this material was written for those people for those times. To try and adapt it to our times is akin to trying to live life in ancient ways, just doesnt work, and most of what you have been able to read that has brought you to this point would have been outside your reach, ie, you would still be dumb.

The development of Man is not linear. I hope we can agree on that. Adding that we are in no position to call other generations 'dumb', given our own state of ignorance. I would even pose that we are degenerates in comparison to earlier generations on a macro level. The level of literacy may be incomparibly larger, this does not mean our intelligence is incomparibly higher. To the contrary. What is different is with literacy, one can read scripture onesself, instead of relying on 'the priesthood' to 'explain' it to you.


So let us not pretend that these religions were all peace and love, they were not. Words were written to control people through fear, words were written to intimidate and to give credence and justification for injustices, this has not changed. The only thing that has altered is that these days the religious followers choose to be selective about what they read and which part they follow, they then feel within their rights to do as they please.

So you believe these 'dumb' people, to use your own terms, wrote the words that have been portrayed as coming through Jesus, and the illiterate known as Muhammad. Thats a nice paradox if I ever did hear one. Words that contain unrivalled wisdom, unrivalled altruism, knowledge - were somehow a mere product of these dumb, backward individuals who used it simply to control others. I used to think exactly that until age ~16, but dont you think thats a bit simplistic, biased and one dimensional?

And if this is true, why would an entity like the Catholic Church withhold scripture to the masses in fear they would empower themselves? The point is, if one knows the teachings of Jesus, or Muhammad - wholly - one knows these teach directly against injustice. This is why I think you havent read them, and why I state the source of these injustices are Man and Man alone. Simply look at the Roman Catholic Church, they do the opposite of what is taught in scripture. We have been through this.


Sorry, I am not singleing out any ONE religion and I am getting sick and tired of hearing the laments of the 'poor' religious people feeling they are being somehow discriminated against due to their belief or histories. Time to unite, grow up and live life according to the rules of your societies.. or simply walk away to another place that feels more comfortable for you and is more tolerant of your belief system.

Dont you think the 'poor religious people' could think thesame as you do here? That they are tired of the modern Atheists who 'lament' feeling they have 'evolved' past religion and accuse religion to be the source of all things nasty, and feel the religious should leave their 'primitive considerations' behind them? And when saying 'time to unite' you imply they should adapt to you, in fact expecting the very same 'religious extremists' expect from others? Take a good step back and self reflect here.

Further seeming to imply all religious people do not conform to the law of the nation they live in. 90% of all religious people [including Muslims] adhere perfectly to the law of the land they live in. As I have stated before, scripture specifically demands that they do so [you are ofcourse talking about Muslims, and I am ofcourse talking about the Qur'an here]. Again proving to me you have not taken the time to actually read what is written, yet decree all sorts of judgments. As so many of us today that love to generalise and elevate themselves over these groups. Nuance, Iwanci, is a beautiful thing.


Sorry, to me all books written by man have nothing to do with god, any god and I cannot see why anyone would follow the rantings written by other men for times so far gone that they will never understand the context. Is it any wonder people around the world are strugging to identify with each other when they cannot even identify with themself?

Its the source that is important, not the one who writes it down. Thesame message has come down through a period of thousands of years, through countless prophets. From Enoch to Noah, from Abraham to Lot, from Jonah to Moses, from David to Solomon, from Jesus to Muhammad. It would [imo] be a far greater reach there is some 'evil' Human element here on earth that has been responsible for all of this, containing teachings against control and ruling opressive parties, against pagan worship, against warmongering, against excesses, and for loving eachother, for charity, for spirituality, for responsibilty - than the other way around.


Time for people to be 'people', all the same, one commonilaty... part of the human race.

I dont see your point here, unless youre implying religious people do not see us as one human race, but that would be a very conditioned, limited view - and Im sure you dont mean that. We can have different opinions and still do just that, obviously. Live and let live. Love thy neighbour. Not 'love thy Christian or religious neighbour'. And treat others as you want to be treated, not treat others as christians want to be treated.. etc etc.

Maybe Im not fully awake, but your words sound very diffuse, generalised and biased to me. Almost like you were copying the popular rhetoric promoted through our media outlets. But thats probably me.

What brings me to another point.. If religion [= scripture] is so evil, used to control us all; why do we see happening exactly what we have been warned for in these scriptures? Why does it teach directly against the aspects our herdsmen seem to strive for? Do we not see the elite we love to hate moving against religion in all facets? Do we not see more and more excesses in our present - more and more 'paganistic' / atheistic society? In pop culture, in the movie industry, in the general 'entertainment industry', in our politics, in every segment? The removal of religion in our schools, the popularity of anti religious content, the promotion of 'New Age' concepts? The socalled 'externalisation of the hyrarchy' seems to have a basis in reality, to say the least. More and more centralised control world wide. The appearence and popularisation of transhumanism and the concept of Man attaining godhood. *Eyes wide shut?*

Anyway, I fully agree with you on the point we know nothing, and we can only summize that which we experience.

"Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music"
"All our science measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - yet, in contemporary consensus, its the most precious thing we have"


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PostMon Oct 01, 2012 9:21 am » by Iwanci


and.. naturally Phaeton you were there when the scriptures where written, so you understand impicitly the reason and the motives behind them yes? You were there when the bible was put together and you were there when it was changed and altered and when the quaran was likewise put together yeah?

No, I think you simply read (and that is great) and you interpret (and that is terrific) and you draw conclusions and somehow with all this information you travel back in time and you can see the true meaning behind everything you read.. ok, now I understand the concept of time travel, thank you.


Look around you Phaeton, and tell me that the world has degenerated. Whilst we can all look and make comments like 'wow, things must have been better years ago', where they really better? Do you not think for one second that people who believe in pagan or ritualistic behavior were led to these beliefs by people who sought to manipulate them? Or do you think that ritualistic sacrifices and the like are signs of an advanced civilisation? Do you believe that when the spanish inquisition was being played out and hundreds or thousands of people were being burnt alive or killed in the name of religion that these were signs of an advanced civilisation? List down the great days from any period you like and let us compare to current times. One thing, you my friend would likely not have survived in those times had you even moved against the adopted religious dogma of the area in which you lived, imagine speaking out against the church (any church)? Imagine speaking out against the prophet? imagine being a Christian follower? Imagine the inflexibility of any religion in any period and tell me that these were indeed better times, more tolerant times and these people were somehow more learned... (unless I have misunderstood your comments).

My point my friend is simple.. YOU do not know and YOU are none the wiser with all YOUR learnings or readings.. this is the truth. But I will add to this one comment.. YOU are NOT alone, I am right beside you in ignorance and so is every man, woman and child on this planet. We simply do not know what we do not know, and to think differently is the height of arrogance.

Ignorance is truly bliss my friend and whilst you can retort or counter every one of my arguments, and me yours, there truly is no proof no matter what the written words say. Words written by man for the consumption of man have no place in belief. Belief comes from within and comes in many forms and is ever changing. If you need a 'scripture' or religious text to show you the light, then you will forever be in darkness, if you rely on writings then the only light you will see is when you finally burn that book.

I have learnt that the further from religion you go, the closer to your god (any god) you become. Look back at the scriptures my friend and tell me what the prophets learnt and how.

My statements are only vague if you want them to be. I do not provide you with scriptures as examples for a simple reason.. your mission is to understand the 'why', but only if you want to. You show me yours, I show you mine, you show me yours and the cycles ensue forever with NO clear distinction, so why bother, what does it prove and to whom and why? My points are made from inside my friend and I am not here to convert you nor to judge your belief, I am only here to share my views and then you (everyone) can read my views and form their own views however they like.

My view is simple, religion is a tool, like a screwdriver, it is best used to tighten a few loose screws...however, when you have nuts involved it serves no real purpose, for that you need a different tool.

capish? :cheers:
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PostThu Oct 04, 2012 3:38 am » by Middleman


Phaeton wrote:"Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses." (1 Samuel 15:3)

I cannot explain this unholy verse at this time, although Saul plays a big part in the verse - it states Samuel, a prophet, tells him to do so. In no instance, an innocent may be murdered. We can read this in the base, the ten commandments. I will have to do more research on this specific verse Im affraid. Thanks for pointing it out.


Have you had a chance to look at this story again, Phaeton?

I've since become aware that a number of Rabbis and other biblical scholars have called the war against the Amalekites a war of genocide.

I know very little of Samuel or Saul, but which is the "good guy" again? it looks to me that the story says Saul spared some of the Amalekites, and Samuel rebuked him for not fulfilling God's command.

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PostThu Oct 04, 2012 7:25 pm » by Phaeton


Middleman wrote:
Phaeton wrote:"Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses." (1 Samuel 15:3)

I cannot explain this unholy verse at this time, although Saul plays a big part in the verse - it states Samuel, a prophet, tells him to do so. In no instance, an innocent may be murdered. We can read this in the base, the ten commandments. I will have to do more research on this specific verse Im affraid. Thanks for pointing it out.


Have you had a chance to look at this story again, Phaeton?

I've since become aware that a number of Rabbis and other biblical scholars have called the war against the Amalekites a war of genocide.

I know very little of Samuel or Saul, but which is the "good guy" again? it looks to me that the story says Saul spared some of the Amalekites, and Samuel rebuked him for not fulfilling God's command.


I have not to be honest. Just started a new job which is asking a lot of me Im afraid. Thats not an excuse though, as I have been playing around on this forum too much during some of the time I did have.
Researching complex matter like this is not done on a weekly night after work, not with me anyway. :wink:

On the good / bad guy, please read my reply to you. It should be quite clear. Yet these are merely my own conclusions after due research, nothing more obviously.

The trick is, for all Im concerned, is to relate any given part of the Bible to the whole message. Next to ofcourse trying to establish which individuals who have played a part, either directly [Saulus de Tarsus] or indirectly [Constantine and his Sol Invictus school of thought] are unsound and who are not.

Again, its a devilishly complex puzzle, but I am convinced there is truth to be found in there, and Im convinced this is not the version modern day Christians adhere to. 'The path is narrow'. Then again, I could be utterly and magestically wrong ofcourse.

Ill try and find some time this weekend Middleman.. Now that I know you are interested as well as I am, Ill try and do it asap.

Cheers bro
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PostThu Oct 04, 2012 7:29 pm » by Middleman


No rush on my end mate, I just thought I'd bring it up again because it's an interesting story and discussion, and you sort of turned me on to it by accident.


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