Unholy Alliance: Islamists and the Left

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PostFri Jan 18, 2013 9:42 am » by Chronicnerd


Noentry wrote:Ok it didn't take half an hour more like 10 mins :flop: ,and it was a well thought out post.
I agree with 99% of your post.
I feel the minority radical Muslims use the 109 verses you mention to justify their pursuit of a global Islam a one world Islamic religion. As you have mentioned to truly understand something you must look at all of it and not just less then 2% of the message as evidence of the whole meaning.

you are right of course there is nothing positive in the Quran for non-Muslims. There are 527 verses in the Quran that are intolerant to non-Muslims and 109 verses calling on Muslims to make war on non-Muslims.

When the violent texts of the old testament is called into question, they are explained as a historical text and is not practiced by Christians. It is still there, it still is preaching violence. It is stil part of the message of the bible.
My question is why do we think it is different for the Qua'ran? It is a book of Mohamed's teachings and it is a historical document.
It is said these 109 verses where in the part of the Qar'an relate to telling of Mohamed's biography when he was at war.

But in terms of ordering violence and bloodshed, any simplistic claim about the superiority of the Bible to the Koran would be wildly wrong. In fact, the Bible overflows with "texts of terror," to borrow a phrase coined by the American theologian Phyllis Trible. The Bible contains far more verses praising or urging bloodshed than does the Koran, and biblical violence is often far more extreme, and marked by more indiscriminate savagery. The Koran often urges believers to fight, yet it also commands that enemies be shown mercy when they surrender. Some frightful portions of the Bible, by contrast, go much further in ordering the total extermination of enemies, of whole families and races - of men, women, and children, and even their livestock, with no quarter granted."


http://www.boston.com/news/local/articl ... mpare.html


here are but a few.

Ezekiel 9:6 "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women . . . "

Isaiah 13:16 "Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."

Deuteronomy 13:15 "Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly . . . "

Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death . . . "

Exodus 32:27 ". . . Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour."

Deut 21:10-12 "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; "

Exodus 31:15 " . . . whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

Deut 21:21 "And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die . . .


"Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible," Jenkins says.

Jenkins is a professor at Penn State University and author of two books dealing with the issue: the recently published Jesus Wars, and Dark Passages , which has not been published but is already drawing controversy.

“ Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible.

- Philip Jenkins, author of 'Jesus Wars'

Violence in the Quran, he and others say, is largely a defense against attack.

"By the standards of the time, which is the 7th century A.D., the laws of war that are laid down by the Quran are actually reasonably humane," he says. "Then we turn to the Bible, and we actually find something that is for many people a real surprise. There is a specific kind of warfare laid down in the Bible which we can only call genocide."

It is called herem, and it means total annihilation. Consider the Book of 1 Samuel, when God instructs King Saul to attack the Amalekites: "And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them," God says through the prophet Samuel. "But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =124494788


The Qur'an has no superior edge over the bible when it comes to violence.
They in my eyes are equal in this regards.



Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran? Is there a way to objectively answer such a question?

-----------Number of Cruel or Violent Passages-----------Total verses---------Percent

Bible------------842---------------------------------------31102------------2.71
Quran-----------333----------------------------------------6236------------5.34


So the Bible has more than twice as many cruel or violent passages as does the Quran. But the Bible is a much bigger book. How do they compare when size is taken into account?

When expressed as a percentage of cruel or violent verses (at least as marked in the SAB/Q), the Quran has about twice that of the Bible. (5.34 vs. 2.71%)*

Of course this analysis does not consider the extent of the cruelty in the marked passages. And that is an important consideration. Is Numbers 31:14-18, for example, more cruel than Quran 5:34? That is something that each person must decide.

A good argument could be made that either book is the most violent and cruel book ever written. The award would go to one or the other, for neither has any close competitors. It is frightening to think that more than half of the world's population believes in one or the other.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/c ... quran.html



In my understanding if you look at just the violence in the opposing books(which incidentally both books have more in common then most realize) than you will find war and violence is promoted by them both.
In the end it maters not who has the most violent verses. It is as you say a matter of perspective.
Both have violent verses and in my eyes both are equal in this regard.
Christians do commit terrorist acts? When Cyprus were controlled by the British empire the Christian Cypriots were branded terrorist. How can this be they are Christians? Even the priest got involved in terrorism, they found the bible did permit these acts, or how could they be involved?
I can tell you without prejudice Christians given the right situation are more then capable of becoming terrorist.


Terrorism is asymmetric warfare where one side is too week to directly engage their enemy. You attack a victim who is collaborating or dependent on your enemy. The victim may not really be your target, but this type of warfare has been around since the first wars, also this type of warfare has been shown to be very successful.
Discovery channel( i think) put out a documentary about an theoretical invasion from ET and it spoke about the asymmetric terrorist war the world would need to fight to combat a superior invading force.
War of any type is not and can never be moral imo.



I do not support terrorism nor do I support occupation of foreign lands.
Imo war and violence are the true foundation of fundamentalist terrorist. The breeding ground from where it springs forth.
Both Christian and Muslim are capable given the right circumstances.
And Imo not from a book of religion.

This is of course my opinion on this.


:cheers:


Most of what you say I think is spot on...

However, the comparison to the Bible and Qur'an as well as comparing "violence" between the two, in my opinion, seems a bit distracting from the *primary* point being made...which was that there are no other religious texts that call for continual war against those that do not believe in the Muslim god... or as they call it "non-believers".

The quotes you pulled from the Bible are mostly references from "historic accounts of what God told people to do...thousands of years ago."

The primary concern being pointed out in this post was that the *only* religion in the world, as of this point in time, that calls for continual aggression/violence against non-believers is the Qur'an.

While historically anyone can pretty much pull anything from any culture/religion and find violent acts, but that only brings up things of the past that need to be known...and most definitely talked about...


However, comparing something that is a reference to God instructing someone a few thousand years ago to do something violent to another society/person kind of distracts from the point by turning the argument into which religious text has more violent language in it.

Since we don't have people running around shooting and blowing people up in the name of the Christian God, Buddha, etc... in *current day times*... the point behind even referencing this was to expose the simple concept that around 109 verses are what is driving this "terrorist" war.

Most religions, including most Muslims, look upon the call to violence under very specific conditions that require very dire circumstances...the middle East has been through this...and we should all take that into account.

However, it would *seem* that we can continue to treat the symptom... or... we can think of a non-intrusive way to try to change the *perception* of those of a Muslim oriented faith who do take those 109 verses literally and act upon them.

So... most of what you posted NoEntry I am spot-on in synch with...just the comparison part lost me a bit as it shifted the issue at hand to a philosophical debate (i.e. which text has more negative/violent verses in it).

Either case... in lieu of all things that happened today... I would say this problem is not going away anytime soon.

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PostFri Jan 18, 2013 9:16 pm » by Noentry


CN I was just trying to point out it is not your orientation that brings terror into your life.
It is circumstances and events.

I only pointed out the connection to the bible because I wanted it known Christian "terrorist" can and do exist. Only when their lands and liberty are are in trouble. Same as 99.9% of all terrorist. The other .1% are criminals, psychos, fundamentalist etc etc. Which sounds like any society in truthfulness.

The 109 verses mention come from the Qur'an ,that is a biography of Mohamed 1500+ years ago.
very similar in comparison to the old testament. They are just historical records, that people can and do take as literal.


Religion is used to unite but it is not a cause for war. Except for the fundamentalist nutters. Which are few and far between in reality. Let us not mix them up with freedom fighters who are fighting to free their lands and care not for anything else.

In Cyprus which is predominately Christian, the whole island united against An Empire occupying them.

Not just the men.
The women.
The Children( boys mostly)
The old.
I know of stories where the old women used to carry explosives across the enemy lines.
The priest used to fight also. Soot guns, throw grenade, etc etc.
Christianity was the common connection between all the "terrorist".
But that is not why they fought. They fought because a superior force had invaded their lands. Threatened their liberty and their safety.

The reality of the situation is, I think we have gone past the point of no return.

We are at a point in time, where a lab any where in the world, can invent a biological genetic virus that can locate and lock onto specific genetic markers.

If mankind does not deviate from this path we are on. It is only a matter of time before one terrorist can commit genocide on a specific ethnicity.

I am not saying we bend over and take Sharia law up the ass. If anyone invades England I will be first to pick up a gun and fight for my freedom. Sad thing is the west are doing this all over the world for resources.

But this indiscriminate bombing and the many western funded political coups have only accelerated this march Armageddon.

If we continue to wage war for gain and kill innocents for nothing. Then there will always be terrorist and doomsday is not far behind.


I have only one grievance with you CN :hell:

You dont post often enough my friend. :flop:
"The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority.
The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority.
The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking."
A. A. Milne


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