Was the historical jesus a zealot leader?
Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:16 pm » by Cosmine
Hello DTVers!
As theres not much interesting treads this morning,imo,i decided to open this one.
Was Jesus a "real" man?
As the gospels are not written like historical records,did the church"s edited them?
Come on! No bible stomper can argue than Jesus an is followers were not carrying weapons.
As english is not my main language and don't remember my bible by hearth,i will rely on an article by Tom Rogers to start that discution...Then just like god i'll sit back,relax and enjoy the show.
The Gospel of Peter: from Jesus the Zealot to Jesus Christ
by Tom Rogers
An Ancient Revolutionary Idea
For almost two centuries, biblical theologians and historians have attempted to "find" the historical Jesus behind the gospels, with minimal results. This historical reality can be most closely grasped by embracing a Zealot revolutionary model.
As our exercise in examining the Passover week and the crucifixion unfolds, every historical detail in the gospels must be examined carefully, comparing it with outside sources to check its accuracy. In addition, we must deal with hundreds of years of censorship on the part of the church and the Roman Empire, which found it necessary to syncretize Christianity's doctrines with the paganism surrounding it so that its survival could be assured.
In particular, Christianity's initial militant Zealot nature had to be suppressed and minimized. While tantalizing glimpses are left, they are unintelligible unless examined by way of a commonsense comparison with the Al Qaeda movement of Osama bin Laden. This is preferable to others' approaches that attempt to analyze the Zealot movement using twentieth century revolutionary models. In addition to cultural, religious and political incongruencies, the sociological construction of such models is wrong.
Like Al Qaeda, the Zealot/Sicarii ideology saw an imminent apocalyptic victory of true believers over the infidels. Both movements have millenial tendencies and depend upon a messianic figure to deliver the faithful. Both make use of family and clan networking for operations stretching over decades of time. Like the Al Qaeda zealots of the 21st century, their counterparts years ago made use of familial and dynastic ties in the homeland and in the Diaspora to attack those they perceived as the great Satan and its smaller allies. The comparison is striking, even in terms of geographic detail. Like Al Qaeda in the 20th and 21st centuries, Egypt was an important base for the Sicarri and Zealot factions in their struggle against the Romans in Judaea.
The Christian Rewriting of History
Especially troubling to church officials is how their savior is so attached to his own people who rejected him and to whom he is so indebted for his teachings and philosophy, including militant philosophies of revolution that have been carefully hidden and glossed over. Modern historical/critical scholarship has shown that Jesus was anything but the meek lamb of God. Especially embarrassing to supporters of church orthodoxy are militant images created by verses such as Matthew 10:14 where Jesus says he has come not to bring peace but a sword, betraying a considerable seditious following and sympathies.
These Jewish, explicitly Zealot roots are the most logical yet seemingly the least recognized part of early Christianity. Certainly, Jesus' statement in Matthew 10:14 is a blatant contradiction to the Sermon on the Mount. The censorship of militant statements by Jesus and the accentuation of peaceful claims remain a hallmark of Christianity to this day. The purpose of this paper will be to return Jesus to the context of the militant Zealot/terrorist roots that spawned his movement, specifically by examining the uncensored material available in the Gospel of Peter and related Gnostic works.
I believe that the Gospel of Peter represents authentic Zealot traditions that were not yet censored out of the text by the time of its second century authorship where it is likely copied and revised from an autograph document. Surely, it was not meant to be seen again but has fortunately reached us due to efforts of its monk protector who had it buried with him.
The Gospel of Peter
In the Upper Nile River valley on the eastern bank is the town of Akhmimin in Egypt. Formerly Panopolis, in ancient times it was the district capital. In the local archaelogical ruins, pagan temples and ruined monasteries lie side by side, testifying to the polyglot nature of Egyptian society where Jew, Pagan, and later Christians lived side by side. The lost Gospel of Peter was found in a Monk's tomb 1884 and contains an account of disciples suspected of some very strange crimes: "And I and my companions were grieved; and being wounded in mind we hid ourselves: for we were being sought for by them as malefactors, and as wishing to set fire to the temple" (Lost Books, 282).
Interestingly enough, the unnamed messianic figure is crucified with two other "malefactors," as Jesus was in the canonical Gospels. Also identical with the canonical Gospels, we are not told anything about the malefactors. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment that was meted out only for crimes against the Roman State. Common crimes could be punished by death by local authorities only with Roman permission.
As portrayed by the Gospel writer, he and his companion were in the eyes of the Roman occupiers in the same class as the men who were crucified with the Messiah. Given the stridently anti-Jewish tone of the Gospel, this would seem at first out of place. In general, this Gospel absolves Pilate of guilt for the crucifixion, placing the blame squarely upon the Jews. However, the Freudian slip takes on new meaning when examined against the canonical Gospels and similar statements that they make about Jesus and his followers.
What is truly amazing is the reference to a plan to burn the temple in Jerusalem. It would seem difficult, even impossible to believe that any rational Jewish person would ever seriously contemplate burning the temple. Unfortunately, recent experiences such as in the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas show that fanaticism can drive people to do savage things even to their coreligionists and sacred places. We will see how this fanaticism of Jesus and the Zealots eventually culminated in the destruction of the entire country and the holocaust of the temple complex itself in 70 CE.
...
The "Cleansing" of the Temple
All of the four canonical gospels tie the "cleansing" of the temple to Jesus' eventual crucifixion. This is the only thing that all the sources agree on regarding the man from Galilee. What we will here analyze is the hostility that he exhibited to the temple as expressed in the canonical gospels themselves:
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (Matthew 24:1-2)
Jesus' attitude is amazing enough, but his actions in the temple itself are even more so:
And they came to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money-changers, and the seats of them that sold doves... (Mark 11:15)
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves... (Matthew 21:12)
And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought... (Luke 19:45)
And (he) found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables... (John 2:14-15)
Thus we have, in all four gospels, a scattered account of an incident that occurred in the Temple precincts or courtyard, involving Jesus and his followers, in which he disrupts certain activities there and appears to "take over" before leaving the City a second time and returning to Bethany.
We are also later informed that a widespread insurrection (Mark 15:7) had taken place in the City which the "Cleansing of the Temple" was probably a part of. Then, of course, Jesus would not be the only one possessing a weapon (as we have seen a whip). Most of the crowd was probably armed. If so, the insurrection, and Jesus' action in the Temple as part of it, was not spontaneous but planned as a pre-Passover "act of freedom" against the pro-Roman establishment. This is possibly the reason that Jesus chose to come to Jerusalem this particular week, looking forward to the insurrection as the spark leading to the unfolding of the Kingdom of G-d, and to his own messianic role as its leader and inaugurate. Moreover, there can be no doubt but that the entire insurrection was planned and led by the Zealots with whose aims Jesus must have been in complete sympathy both as a Jew and as a fellow Gallilean, especially when we remember that several of his own disciples were Zealots.
While the riot in the Temple is not portrayed in detail in the canonical Gospels logical deduction can fill in most of the vital details. It was less than a week before the Passover, which the Romans always considered a tinder dry period when anything could, and did, happen. The Jews flocked in their millions to attend this Holy Festival, for every healthy male over the age of 12 living within ninety miles of the Temple was compelled by the Law to attend his God and give an account of himself, which shows that the Jews packed a powerful 'punch' into a relatively small area.
It was at Passover then, when religious and nationalistic fervor ran high and hot, that trouble would start. What made the Roman apprehension all the greater was that the milling multitude included tens of thousands of the rough, tough Gallileans who were mostly Zealots and ardent Messianists. Expected to control the myriad's was a force consisting of the Jewish Temple Police—amounting to no more than a probable two hundred—and one cohort of Roman troops, normally five hundred men. When Pontius Pilate made his customary Passover visit from his palace in Caesarea, he brought another cohort of seasoned troops to stiffen the Temple Guard in the riot season, as would Herod Antipas, with an additional cohort.
A popular uprising would undoubtedly involve every last Galilean Zealot in and around Jerusalem. Against these formidable forces Rome could muster a mere five hundred troops while the Temple Police, responsible to the Sanhedrin, numbered only two hundred but as their job was only to protect the Temple, Rome couldn't expect their assistance in troubles elsewhere in the City. With the odds against them a minimum of eight to one, not even the valiant Legionaries could be expected to prevail. Likely, Pilate and Antipas, when they arrived in a few days time would be too late.
So why was the rebellion a dismal failure? The beginnings of the attempted coup are described in the gospels so that there is no great need of speculation. Certainly, his public entry into Jerusalem riding on an ass tipped off the Romans to the plans by becoming the living prophecy of Zechariah 9:9 which says: 'Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion; shout O daughter of Jerusalem: Behold thy King cometh unto thee... meek... and riding upon an ass...!' Shouting his name and imploring him to rise and save them from Rome—as their King and Messiah surely would—the crowd's acclamations became one mighty, thunderous roar. Undoubtedly, the Romans used this intelligence to concentrate their forces around the Temple Mount and subdue the rebellion, executing the leader in the process.
In Jerome's Vulgate version of the Bible in John 18:3, the term cohort is used to describe the size of the military unit that came to arrest Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemanie. Such units were quite large, being 500-600 men strong, usually accompanied by generous contingents of local auxiliaries. The gospels confirm that elements of the temple guard accompanied the Roman soldiers as the came to arrest Jesus. Certainly, Pontius Pilate expected a pitched battle and took no chances by responding with overwhelming force at that spot where Jesus was most vulnerable.
...
http://www.eclectica.org/v7n3/rogers.html
As theres not much interesting treads this morning,imo,i decided to open this one.
Was Jesus a "real" man?
As the gospels are not written like historical records,did the church"s edited them?
Come on! No bible stomper can argue than Jesus an is followers were not carrying weapons.
As english is not my main language and don't remember my bible by hearth,i will rely on an article by Tom Rogers to start that discution...Then just like god i'll sit back,relax and enjoy the show.
The Gospel of Peter: from Jesus the Zealot to Jesus Christ
by Tom Rogers
An Ancient Revolutionary Idea
For almost two centuries, biblical theologians and historians have attempted to "find" the historical Jesus behind the gospels, with minimal results. This historical reality can be most closely grasped by embracing a Zealot revolutionary model.
As our exercise in examining the Passover week and the crucifixion unfolds, every historical detail in the gospels must be examined carefully, comparing it with outside sources to check its accuracy. In addition, we must deal with hundreds of years of censorship on the part of the church and the Roman Empire, which found it necessary to syncretize Christianity's doctrines with the paganism surrounding it so that its survival could be assured.
In particular, Christianity's initial militant Zealot nature had to be suppressed and minimized. While tantalizing glimpses are left, they are unintelligible unless examined by way of a commonsense comparison with the Al Qaeda movement of Osama bin Laden. This is preferable to others' approaches that attempt to analyze the Zealot movement using twentieth century revolutionary models. In addition to cultural, religious and political incongruencies, the sociological construction of such models is wrong.
Like Al Qaeda, the Zealot/Sicarii ideology saw an imminent apocalyptic victory of true believers over the infidels. Both movements have millenial tendencies and depend upon a messianic figure to deliver the faithful. Both make use of family and clan networking for operations stretching over decades of time. Like the Al Qaeda zealots of the 21st century, their counterparts years ago made use of familial and dynastic ties in the homeland and in the Diaspora to attack those they perceived as the great Satan and its smaller allies. The comparison is striking, even in terms of geographic detail. Like Al Qaeda in the 20th and 21st centuries, Egypt was an important base for the Sicarri and Zealot factions in their struggle against the Romans in Judaea.
The Christian Rewriting of History
Especially troubling to church officials is how their savior is so attached to his own people who rejected him and to whom he is so indebted for his teachings and philosophy, including militant philosophies of revolution that have been carefully hidden and glossed over. Modern historical/critical scholarship has shown that Jesus was anything but the meek lamb of God. Especially embarrassing to supporters of church orthodoxy are militant images created by verses such as Matthew 10:14 where Jesus says he has come not to bring peace but a sword, betraying a considerable seditious following and sympathies.
These Jewish, explicitly Zealot roots are the most logical yet seemingly the least recognized part of early Christianity. Certainly, Jesus' statement in Matthew 10:14 is a blatant contradiction to the Sermon on the Mount. The censorship of militant statements by Jesus and the accentuation of peaceful claims remain a hallmark of Christianity to this day. The purpose of this paper will be to return Jesus to the context of the militant Zealot/terrorist roots that spawned his movement, specifically by examining the uncensored material available in the Gospel of Peter and related Gnostic works.
I believe that the Gospel of Peter represents authentic Zealot traditions that were not yet censored out of the text by the time of its second century authorship where it is likely copied and revised from an autograph document. Surely, it was not meant to be seen again but has fortunately reached us due to efforts of its monk protector who had it buried with him.
The Gospel of Peter
In the Upper Nile River valley on the eastern bank is the town of Akhmimin in Egypt. Formerly Panopolis, in ancient times it was the district capital. In the local archaelogical ruins, pagan temples and ruined monasteries lie side by side, testifying to the polyglot nature of Egyptian society where Jew, Pagan, and later Christians lived side by side. The lost Gospel of Peter was found in a Monk's tomb 1884 and contains an account of disciples suspected of some very strange crimes: "And I and my companions were grieved; and being wounded in mind we hid ourselves: for we were being sought for by them as malefactors, and as wishing to set fire to the temple" (Lost Books, 282).
Interestingly enough, the unnamed messianic figure is crucified with two other "malefactors," as Jesus was in the canonical Gospels. Also identical with the canonical Gospels, we are not told anything about the malefactors. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment that was meted out only for crimes against the Roman State. Common crimes could be punished by death by local authorities only with Roman permission.
As portrayed by the Gospel writer, he and his companion were in the eyes of the Roman occupiers in the same class as the men who were crucified with the Messiah. Given the stridently anti-Jewish tone of the Gospel, this would seem at first out of place. In general, this Gospel absolves Pilate of guilt for the crucifixion, placing the blame squarely upon the Jews. However, the Freudian slip takes on new meaning when examined against the canonical Gospels and similar statements that they make about Jesus and his followers.
What is truly amazing is the reference to a plan to burn the temple in Jerusalem. It would seem difficult, even impossible to believe that any rational Jewish person would ever seriously contemplate burning the temple. Unfortunately, recent experiences such as in the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas show that fanaticism can drive people to do savage things even to their coreligionists and sacred places. We will see how this fanaticism of Jesus and the Zealots eventually culminated in the destruction of the entire country and the holocaust of the temple complex itself in 70 CE.
...
The "Cleansing" of the Temple
All of the four canonical gospels tie the "cleansing" of the temple to Jesus' eventual crucifixion. This is the only thing that all the sources agree on regarding the man from Galilee. What we will here analyze is the hostility that he exhibited to the temple as expressed in the canonical gospels themselves:
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (Matthew 24:1-2)
Jesus' attitude is amazing enough, but his actions in the temple itself are even more so:
And they came to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money-changers, and the seats of them that sold doves... (Mark 11:15)
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves... (Matthew 21:12)
And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought... (Luke 19:45)
And (he) found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables... (John 2:14-15)
Thus we have, in all four gospels, a scattered account of an incident that occurred in the Temple precincts or courtyard, involving Jesus and his followers, in which he disrupts certain activities there and appears to "take over" before leaving the City a second time and returning to Bethany.
We are also later informed that a widespread insurrection (Mark 15:7) had taken place in the City which the "Cleansing of the Temple" was probably a part of. Then, of course, Jesus would not be the only one possessing a weapon (as we have seen a whip). Most of the crowd was probably armed. If so, the insurrection, and Jesus' action in the Temple as part of it, was not spontaneous but planned as a pre-Passover "act of freedom" against the pro-Roman establishment. This is possibly the reason that Jesus chose to come to Jerusalem this particular week, looking forward to the insurrection as the spark leading to the unfolding of the Kingdom of G-d, and to his own messianic role as its leader and inaugurate. Moreover, there can be no doubt but that the entire insurrection was planned and led by the Zealots with whose aims Jesus must have been in complete sympathy both as a Jew and as a fellow Gallilean, especially when we remember that several of his own disciples were Zealots.
While the riot in the Temple is not portrayed in detail in the canonical Gospels logical deduction can fill in most of the vital details. It was less than a week before the Passover, which the Romans always considered a tinder dry period when anything could, and did, happen. The Jews flocked in their millions to attend this Holy Festival, for every healthy male over the age of 12 living within ninety miles of the Temple was compelled by the Law to attend his God and give an account of himself, which shows that the Jews packed a powerful 'punch' into a relatively small area.
It was at Passover then, when religious and nationalistic fervor ran high and hot, that trouble would start. What made the Roman apprehension all the greater was that the milling multitude included tens of thousands of the rough, tough Gallileans who were mostly Zealots and ardent Messianists. Expected to control the myriad's was a force consisting of the Jewish Temple Police—amounting to no more than a probable two hundred—and one cohort of Roman troops, normally five hundred men. When Pontius Pilate made his customary Passover visit from his palace in Caesarea, he brought another cohort of seasoned troops to stiffen the Temple Guard in the riot season, as would Herod Antipas, with an additional cohort.
A popular uprising would undoubtedly involve every last Galilean Zealot in and around Jerusalem. Against these formidable forces Rome could muster a mere five hundred troops while the Temple Police, responsible to the Sanhedrin, numbered only two hundred but as their job was only to protect the Temple, Rome couldn't expect their assistance in troubles elsewhere in the City. With the odds against them a minimum of eight to one, not even the valiant Legionaries could be expected to prevail. Likely, Pilate and Antipas, when they arrived in a few days time would be too late.
So why was the rebellion a dismal failure? The beginnings of the attempted coup are described in the gospels so that there is no great need of speculation. Certainly, his public entry into Jerusalem riding on an ass tipped off the Romans to the plans by becoming the living prophecy of Zechariah 9:9 which says: 'Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion; shout O daughter of Jerusalem: Behold thy King cometh unto thee... meek... and riding upon an ass...!' Shouting his name and imploring him to rise and save them from Rome—as their King and Messiah surely would—the crowd's acclamations became one mighty, thunderous roar. Undoubtedly, the Romans used this intelligence to concentrate their forces around the Temple Mount and subdue the rebellion, executing the leader in the process.
In Jerome's Vulgate version of the Bible in John 18:3, the term cohort is used to describe the size of the military unit that came to arrest Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemanie. Such units were quite large, being 500-600 men strong, usually accompanied by generous contingents of local auxiliaries. The gospels confirm that elements of the temple guard accompanied the Roman soldiers as the came to arrest Jesus. Certainly, Pontius Pilate expected a pitched battle and took no chances by responding with overwhelming force at that spot where Jesus was most vulnerable.
...
http://www.eclectica.org/v7n3/rogers.html
Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:28 pm » by Jet17
Outside of the bible, there is no historical references to Jesus being an actual man.
Considering the Bible was written 50-150 years after the fact of Jesus (new testament) and by second hand accounts, there is no reason to believe this man actually existed.
Also if you take into account that there was no Birth record, or Execution record by the Romans or Jews, this really cast a light on the fact that this person ever existed.
Also the fact that the bible itself can't account for where Jesus went from the age of around 5 until he was 30 (what did he just walk away?) is even more evidence that this person never existed.
Considering the Bible was written 50-150 years after the fact of Jesus (new testament) and by second hand accounts, there is no reason to believe this man actually existed.
Also if you take into account that there was no Birth record, or Execution record by the Romans or Jews, this really cast a light on the fact that this person ever existed.
Also the fact that the bible itself can't account for where Jesus went from the age of around 5 until he was 30 (what did he just walk away?) is even more evidence that this person never existed.
*View my post history under former usernames: JetXVII, Epicfailure, Slamgunshark*
DJ Jesus died for your Spins!
Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:14 pm » by Cosmine
Jet,even if the records are weak denying an historical Jesus is not intellectualy honest, romans and greek historians don't come whit the argument that theres no Jesus before the third century and theres a rumor that there is a jail roman record from jerusalem around 40 ad whit the name Jesus the Nazarean hidden at the smithsonian.
- Iamthatiam
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- Posts: 4940
- Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:03 pm
- Location: אין סוף אוֹר
Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:41 pm » by Iamthatiam
Without any "Anthropomorphizing" delusions, here is the 'Historical Christ':
"The Heaven's Lights are fed by the energy generated inside the furnaces of Hell; I AM One Conductive Wire! "
Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:23 pm » by Otoel
As we stated in our "Sudden Reality" series, Yeshua was never about Love and Peace, but rather he openly spoke against authorities, and told the Jewish priests that they were "The Child Of Satan"
"I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" Mathew 10:34
I encourage people to actually read Scripture without a bias view of it, interpretations created by the Church and other such organizations.
I will give you the short version, some of you are bound for The World of Light, some of you find solace in this system of fear,death and destruction and thus you shall remain here. Only that you never created this Environment, you simply believe that you do. You have no more ownership of this Environment, that the authorities who tell you how to behave as if they were your progenitors.
NAMASTE
"I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" Mathew 10:34
I encourage people to actually read Scripture without a bias view of it, interpretations created by the Church and other such organizations.
I will give you the short version, some of you are bound for The World of Light, some of you find solace in this system of fear,death and destruction and thus you shall remain here. Only that you never created this Environment, you simply believe that you do. You have no more ownership of this Environment, that the authorities who tell you how to behave as if they were your progenitors.
NAMASTE
evidence of what,otoel? that you're fucking certifiably insane? you watch a children's show,and analyze it,for hours then in your spare time,you give distorted scripture studies for a bunch of losers on the interweb.-Boon
- Opalserpent
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- Posts: 691
- Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:47 am
Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:25 pm » by Opalserpent
In the book the holy blood the holy grail it does suggest that jesus was a zealot.
I have to paste this link it.
Guess who's at the whitehouse planning their next false flag?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/ ... ymtV8WO1CS
I have to paste this link it.
Guess who's at the whitehouse planning their next false flag?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/ ... ymtV8WO1CS
Live by the Terror, Die by the Terror.
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