Why is the Muslim world so easily offended?

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PostTue Sep 25, 2012 10:07 am » by Phaeton


Fatdogmendoza wrote:
Phaeton wrote:
Fatdogmendoza wrote:
I am the same as Jeffrey Dahmer except for
I am the same as Adolph Hitler except for
I am the same as Idi Amin except for
I am the same as Rosa Parks except for..

The point being is that yes, we are all members of the human race, but beliefs, ideologies, state of mind etc do make us different.



My point was, that you have all sorts in the Muslim community.. Just like you have all sorts in the rest of the Human 'groups', if I could call it that. This in reply to your implication that the specific group known to us as 'Muslims' were intrinsically different than you and I. This is not the case.

You have Muslims who call themselves that because their parents did, and they were raised under that flag - but dont have any real relationship with G*d, dont practice it. You have Muslims who lean to or lavish in the extreme in their practice of their religion. You also have Muslims who just want to do what they read in their scripture / books and bother no one doing it.

Same goes for Christians, same goes for Hindu's, Zionists, Communists, Neocons, [National] Socialists, etc etc. The ONLY difference between the aformentioned groups is that the Islamic variant is promoted heavily as being 'murderous', 'evil', etc etc. Anti Islamic propaganda is absolutely prevalent throughout the Western media landscape.

If I misinterpreted your comment
, than I apologize.. But the feeling I got reading it, is that you specifically identified Muslims as, again, an intrinsically different group compared to 'us', ie. the rest of Mankind.. Or largely comprised of people who are different than us.

Not the case. Imho.



You have bro, greatly...I come from an area in Birmingham UK called Small Heath...I have never said that all muslims are a different group to US Firstly who the fuck are us.. What I have said is that what makes us different is our upbringing, our personal beliefs and our religious beliefs whatever they may be or not as is the case in my and whether these beliefs are pious or not.. please do not put me into the same category as you seem to judge other members of Dtv, some rightfully so.. My point is that we are all different unless we become part of a none thinking non flexible group of people , in this case people who are going nuts over an obvious piece of manipulative propaganda and making themselves look like idiotic imbeciles... now thats what I call playing into the hands of the racist bigots...



You mean like the idiotic imbiciles who think it wise to rave against Islam armed with the biased, manipulative propaganda provided to them by the media?

Islamophobes are just like Muslims extremists. Reading - or having read to them - little snippets here and there, unable to grasp the whole message, with hate as their prime motivation. Both very happy to being polarised - pitched against eachother. Another point of similarity between groups in the West, and groups in the Middle East.

Circumstances are the only factor that makes us 'different', as you use it, on an individual level. Which decides in which group in either congregation a person resides.

Some Muslims are just as different to you and me as some non- Muslims.
Most Muslims are good, independantly thinking people, just as Id like to think most non- Muslims are good, indepentantly thinking people.

The misinterpretation here is that I thought you were talking about a macro level, instead of an individual level.

Cheers mate, I have no intention to aggravate you in any way.
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PostTue Sep 25, 2012 10:23 am » by Fatdogmendoza


Fatdogmendoza wrote:
Phaeton wrote:
Fatdogmendoza wrote:
I am the same as Jeffrey Dahmer except for
I am the same as Adolph Hitler except for
I am the same as Idi Amin except for
I am the same as Rosa Parks except for..




You have bro, greatly...I come from an area in Birmingham UK called Small Heath...I have never said that all muslims are a different group to US Firstly who the fuck are us.. What I have said is that what makes us different is our upbringing, our personal beliefs and our religious beliefs whatever they may be or not as is the case in my and whether these beliefs are pious or not.. please do not put me into the same category as you seem to judge other members of Dtv, some rightfully so.. My point is that we are all different unless we become part of a none thinking non flexible group of people , in this case people who are going nuts over an obvious piece of manipulative propaganda and making themselves look like idiotic imbeciles... now thats what I call playing into the hands of the racist bigots...



[color=#0000FF]You mean like the idiotic imbiciles who think it wise to rave against Islam armed with the biased, manipulative propaganda provided to them by the media? [/color]

Islamophobes are just like Muslims extremists. Reading - or having read to them - little snippets here and there, unable to grasp the whole message, with hate as their prime motivation. Both very happy to being polarised - pitched against eachother. Another point of similarity between groups in the West, and groups in the Middle East.

Circumstances are the only factor that makes us 'different', as you use it, on an individual level. Which decides in which group in either congregation a person resides.

Some Muslims are just as different to you and me as some non- Muslims.
Most Muslims are good, independantly thinking people, just as Id like to think most non- Muslims are good, indepentantly thinking people.

The misinterpretation here is that I thought you were talking about a macro level, instead of an individual level.

Cheers mate, I have no intention to aggravate you in any way.


Yes you are correct in that assumption,
No you dont aggravate me, some of what you say is correct and in this case I tend to agree more than not, however whatever my opinions maybe, there are always more than one side to an argument and I prefer to present all of them if I can, :cheers:
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PostWed Sep 26, 2012 11:48 am » by Iwanci


Let's face one reality... if we get rid of all religions (not beliefs) we would have less as a species to argue over.. no?
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PostWed Sep 26, 2012 1:32 pm » by Phaeton


Iwanci wrote:Let's face one reality... if we get rid of all religions (not beliefs) we would have less as a species to argue over.. no?


You would pose to ban religions, religious freedom, because we would have less to argue over?

I dont think I agree to this logic, at all.
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PostWed Sep 26, 2012 8:00 pm » by Mozi!!a


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PostWed Sep 26, 2012 11:42 pm » by Aragajag


I got to laugh when I read the term racist when it comes to religion and the well meaning ignorance that puts it out there.
Its not just a west thing or the way islam is perceived here, take good look at the happenings in south of Thailand who far removed from western ways but yet muslims are making their way up the peninsular cutting heads off of people who dont wish to submit.
Sure not all muslims are for violence but they dont really stand out when violence is happening.
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PostThu Sep 27, 2012 8:13 am » by Iwanci


Phaeton, I am not suggesting a 'ban' on religion.. There are ways to dissuade people from certain paganistic rituals that do not involve any adverse or noticeable effects... like for example, education. Through time we are seeing the evolution of the human mindset away from religious dogma, all I am suggesting is speeding this 'natural' process up, it could take time but I am certain the education process (if adopted by all countries) would make it more acceptable for people to believe without feeling that their rights are being trampled on by others with differing opinions.

Also, it's a big jump calling religion a 'freedom' when the truth is that it enslaves people on a grand scale through the manipulation of thought processes. Let me give you an example;

If I was to tell people to do something against their 'will' they would likely ignore me or brush me aside or at the very least question my intentions. If I was one of their respected priests and called on the people to commit the same action in the name of their 'GOD' the likely outcome would be that some if not all would partake. This is what we see every day, average people who would not normally act or react in a manner but somehow feel it is perfectly acceptable because their religious leaders have given them the acceptance and approval they need.

Freedoms can be eroded from our society without real discernment or contention, it is well known that the best way to enslave a man is to make him believe he is free. The truth is in the contradiction.

I am suggesting that education without fear of reprisal should teach people that religion is a 'belief' that people are free to adopt provided it does not impede with other peoples' rights and provided it does not lend itself to discriminatory practices (either way). Education could be used to show people that they need to follow the laws of a country and that religious dogma has little to do with the way we 'live' our lives within the country's legal system. For example, replacing the need for people to swear on a bible in court by something more uniform and not religious based. Education could be used to slowly but surely desensitize people away from the fear that religion may instil in them (people used to fear being called witches for fear of reprisal, education slowly showed us that it is ok to believe in witches).

Education should be used to teach that it is ok to 'believe' in anything you like without prejudice and 'tolerance' should be shown regardless. Education can be used to teach that religion is a 'belief' and that no ONE religion is better than the next.

Slowly people would disengage from the fanaticism associated with any religion and live their lives more at peace. Religion is the commoditisation of belief, and YES I strongly believe that it is akin to many 'blind' people professing to know more or see better than the next one, this is where the angst lies and this is where the hatred comes from. People trying to outdo each other and show that they know best, ego could sum it up, and underpinning this occurrence is an underbelly of manipulators and self serving people who use people's beliefs against them through manipulation.

So yes, eventually everyone should be able to believe and pray without fear of reprisal and without any bigoted views being pushed (unwittingly) down their throats.

People must understand that religion, like any other belief, is all in their minds. Good or bad are never a factor, except when the evil is allowed to escape out of their minds and into our reality.


You will note I do not use the terms 'muslims, catholics, christians, buddhists' etc etc.. This is not a singulairty, the issues we are confronted with today are not unique to any ONE religious belief, it is an issue that has plagued mankind for centuries and will continue to do so until people start understanding the true essence of 'belief' and how religion and 'belief' are not quite the same.

:cheers:
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PostThu Sep 27, 2012 6:19 pm » by Phaeton


Iwanci wrote:Phaeton, I am not suggesting a 'ban' on religion.. There are ways to dissuade people from certain paganistic rituals that do not involve any adverse or noticeable effects... like for example, education. Through time we are seeing the evolution of the human mindset away from religious dogma, all I am suggesting is speeding this 'natural' process up, it could take time but I am certain the education process (if adopted by all countries) would make it more acceptable for people to believe without feeling that their rights are being trampled on by others with differing opinions.

Completely agree Iwanci.


Also, it's a big jump calling religion a 'freedom' when the truth is that it enslaves people on a grand scale through the manipulation of thought processes. Let me give you an example;

Religion doesnt enslave people, people enslave people. When I talk of religion, I mean any given religious scripture. Not some religious congregation.

If I was to tell people to do something against their 'will' they would likely ignore me or brush me aside or at the very least question my intentions. If I was one of their respected priests and called on the people to commit the same action in the name of their 'GOD' the likely outcome would be that some if not all would partake. This is what we see every day, average people who would not normally act or react in a manner but somehow feel it is perfectly acceptable because their religious leaders have given them the acceptance and approval they need.

This scenario can only happen if the person at hand is ignorant. So yeah, education plays a central role in all of this.


Freedoms can be eroded from our society without real discernment or contention, it is well known that the best way to enslave a man is to make him believe he is free. The truth is in the contradiction.

I am suggesting that education without fear of reprisal should teach people that religion is a 'belief' that people are free to adopt provided it does not impede with other peoples' rights and provided it does not lend itself to discriminatory practices (either way). Education could be used to show people that they need to follow the laws of a country and that religious dogma has little to do with the way we 'live' our lives within the country's legal system. For example, replacing the need for people to swear on a bible in court by something more uniform and not religious based. Education could be used to slowly but surely desensitize people away from the fear that religion may instil in them (people used to fear being called witches for fear of reprisal, education slowly showed us that it is ok to believe in witches).

I think were approaching a thin line of education and possible miseducation. But I agree with your general point. Education should result in an ability of critical thought / self reflection, awareness about the world at large, nuance, tolerance.. Ie, it should give you the tools to negotiate 'the world' in a civil and non biased manner [as much as possible ofcourse].

Education should be used to teach that it is ok to 'believe' in anything you like without prejudice and 'tolerance' should be shown regardless. Education can be used to teach that religion is a 'belief' and that no ONE religion is better than the next.

Slowly people would disengage from the fanaticism associated with any religion and live their lives more at peace. Religion is the commoditisation of belief, and YES I strongly believe that it is akin to many 'blind' people professing to know more or see better than the next one, this is where the angst lies and this is where the hatred comes from. People trying to outdo each other and show that they know best, ego could sum it up, and underpinning this occurrence is an underbelly of manipulators and self serving people who use people's beliefs against them through manipulation.

I still have the feeling you regard 'religion' as the source of these undesirable phenomena. That fanaticism is somehow enclosed in any given ['mainstream'] religion. Its not, imho. Factors that attribute to these extremists are indeed lack of education, and on a lower level, lack of 'welfare'. Because as a rule, good education can only come when there is a certain level of wealth throughout the resp. society.

Extremism comes from poor, unstructured, chaotic, uneducated area's. These factors provide the victims who are liable to adhere to extremist notions. The last facilitating factor is 'people' who use religion [> organised religion] to gain power, personal wealth, further political goals.

I would add that hatred, normally, comes from ignorance. Again a product of lack of education.


So yes, eventually everyone should be able to believe and pray without fear of reprisal and without any bigoted views being pushed (unwittingly) down their throats.

People must understand that religion, like any other belief, is all in their minds. Good or bad are never a factor, except when the evil is allowed to escape out of their minds and into our reality.


You will note I do not use the terms 'muslims, catholics, christians, buddhists' etc etc.. This is not a singulairty, the issues we are confronted with today are not unique to any ONE religious belief, it is an issue that has plagued mankind for centuries and will continue to do so until people start understanding the true essence of 'belief' and how religion and 'belief' are not quite the same.

:cheers:



cheers mate
:cheers:
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PostFri Sep 28, 2012 1:20 am » by Iwanci


Maybe there is a fundemental difference in what people see as education. For me education only partly comes from formal schooling. Schooling provides 'knowledge', life and living experience provides the application.

I agree with most everything you say mate. I still maintain however that in my opinion religion IS the cause of many of our social issues. People cannot enslave other people without a tool. These enslavement tools come in all forms, some subtle and others not so. A gun for example is a tool which can be used for enslavement, the threat is presented in the possibility of physical harm or death. Religion is a tool which can likewise be used to instill fear, fear of repercussions for non compliance in this life would cause ripples in the next life/afterlife.

In my opinion, anything that derives its power and purpose by placing 'fear' in the hearts and minds of the audience is tool which can be misused. Our laws for example need to have associated ramifications for non compliance, a punishment needs to follow. Without the fear the law would be useless. Laws are another tool used to enslave people. Then again, the word enslavement is also a subjective one that may have different layers or levels of interpretation and could mean different things to different people.

For example, some women are seen as 'slaves' to their husbands in a modern society, whereas in their own societies it is not enslavement but an obligation that a wife would humbly accept.

I also draw a distinction between 'belief' and 'religion'. The two, again in my opinion, are not the same. Belief is a state of mind that draws on people's thoughts and experiences and could be forever changing as one moves through different life situations, I see belief as fluid and flexible and a evolutionary, the more you live and learn the more your beliefs may change. Religion on the other hand is a static guidebook outlining the way people should believe and behave. Religion does not allow growth through life experience it only allows growth through static means, the more you read about that religions beliefs and the more you comply with the dogma the greater you are seen as growing spiritualy.

Religious belief is perfectly ok as long as you stay within the guidelines and do not dare to question or alter it. How many religions have been altered in recent times? Very few modifications if any are allowed. This shows inflexibility and in a changing world flexibility is paramount for the succesful integration of people from one community into another. Perhaps it is this inflexible attitude that is partly to blame for so much religious tension and intolerence around the globe? So we come full circle and need to ask, which religion is the right one? If none will be flexible enough to embrace the other or integrate, then to me the outcome is most definately foreseeable, more social unrest as one religious group tries to impose on another. So what has changed on this front in the past 2000 years? Not much, society still lives with the same religious tensions that dogged it many years ago, the only real diference is that easier travel has now placed people with oposing religious views directly infront of each other, and where once they could avoid each other or exclude each other, these days social and economic issues forces unlike-minded people to work and live with each other, and we can all see the tensions this creates unfolding around us everyday.


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PostFri Sep 28, 2012 8:53 pm » by Phaeton


Iwanci wrote:Maybe there is a fundemental difference in what people see as education. For me education only partly comes from formal schooling. Schooling provides 'knowledge', life and living experience provides the application.

I agree with most everything you say mate. I still maintain however that in my opinion religion IS the cause of many of our social issues. People cannot enslave other people without a tool. These enslavement tools come in all forms, some subtle and others not so. A gun for example is a tool which can be used for enslavement, the threat is presented in the possibility of physical harm or death. Religion is a tool which can likewise be used to instill fear, fear of repercussions for non compliance in this life would cause ripples in the next life/afterlife.

In my opinion, anything that derives its power and purpose by placing 'fear' in the hearts and minds of the audience is tool which can be misused. Our laws for example need to have associated ramifications for non compliance, a punishment needs to follow. Without the fear the law would be useless. Laws are another tool used to enslave people. Then again, the word enslavement is also a subjective one that may have different layers or levels of interpretation and could mean different things to different people.

For example, some women are seen as 'slaves' to their husbands in a modern society, whereas in their own societies it is not enslavement but an obligation that a wife would humbly accept.

I also draw a distinction between 'belief' and 'religion'. The two, again in my opinion, are not the same. Belief is a state of mind that draws on people's thoughts and experiences and could be forever changing as one moves through different life situations, I see belief as fluid and flexible and a evolutionary, the more you live and learn the more your beliefs may change. Religion on the other hand is a static guidebook outlining the way people should believe and behave. Religion does not allow growth through life experience it only allows growth through static means, the more you read about that religions beliefs and the more you comply with the dogma the greater you are seen as growing spiritualy.

Religious belief is perfectly ok as long as you stay within the guidelines and do not dare to question or alter it. How many religions have been altered in recent times? Very few modifications if any are allowed. This shows inflexibility and in a changing world flexibility is paramount for the succesful integration of people from one community into another. Perhaps it is this inflexible attitude that is partly to blame for so much religious tension and intolerence around the globe? So we come full circle and need to ask, which religion is the right one? If none will be flexible enough to embrace the other or integrate, then to me the outcome is most definately foreseeable, more social unrest as one religious group tries to impose on another. So what has changed on this front in the past 2000 years? Not much, society still lives with the same religious tensions that dogged it many years ago, the only real diference is that easier travel has now placed people with oposing religious views directly infront of each other, and where once they could avoid each other or exclude each other, these days social and economic issues forces unlike-minded people to work and live with each other, and we can all see the tensions this creates unfolding around us everyday.


:cheers:



I respectfully disagree, but that wont be a shocker for you :wink:

All inflexibility, all fanaticism, all 'fear', all control, all hate, all things negative, comes from the state of mind of the given human being. Full stop. The rest are mere tools.

Negative use of any given tool, be it religion, be it fire- arms, be it a screwdriver, comes from humans and the state of mind they maintain.

I could use myself as proof of this statement I think. I am 'religious', as in finding value in the teachings held in Scripture - but am openminded, tolerant, have been on a long but steady evolution of opinion, of insights. My opinion is strong, not easily changed, but that is not inflexibility. I have come from afar, swimming against the stream [Atheist > Religious]. I do not conform to any consensus, I do not fit any category. I do not agree with 'Christians', I do not agree with 'Muslims', 'Atheists'.. I do not belong to any group, lest maybe the group that doesnt belong, if such a group exists. The uncategorisable category.

I have a little rule of thumb Id like to adhere to. If everyone takes a left, I almost per def. take a right.

Dont believe the hype. ANY hype.
"Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music"
"All our science measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - yet, in contemporary consensus, its the most precious thing we have"


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