Why is the Muslim world so easily offended?

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PostFri Sep 28, 2012 10:00 pm » by Mozi!!a


Filmmaker behind anti-Islam video is arrested :roll:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... 9452.story
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PostFri Sep 28, 2012 10:12 pm » by Phaeton


"Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music"
"All our science measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - yet, in contemporary consensus, its the most precious thing we have"


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PostSat Sep 29, 2012 1:13 am » by Iwanci


Phaeton I respectfully do not disagree with you my friend.

I do not however entirely agree with you either.

We often say 'guns dont kill humans, people kill humans'... now, imagine for one second a world without guns? The sying will then become... 'humans kill humans'... no mention of guns.

I agree wholeheartedly that humans are responsible for their actions, and I know there is a fine line between sanity and insanity, however, why make it that much easier for people to cross that line?

Religion is a tool used for good in many instances, I am not religious (although I was raised very closely with religious teachings), I am a believer however. I believe that religious dogma and teachings per se are not bad, on the contrary, I believe it brings solace and a sense of belonging to the many people who struggle to find meaning or acceptance in their lives, anything that brings people together in my opinion cannot be bad.

However, there is still the greater and overarching 'evil' doer with the wrong intention that is all too eager to use this tool for their own purposes. The scredriver is a great tool for turning screws, but manipulated could cause much harm. So we don't ban screwdrivers (I agree), but we must teach our people the true nature of the purpose. This is where religion fails miserably (IMO). It teaches tolerance only to the point that it does not offend itself, whereas in my world (mind) tolerance is best shown in the most extreme of cases, if you can live with it, it wouldn't be caled tolerance. True tolereance comes from making yourself live alongside, peacefully, with someone you do not agree with.

That is why when I appear to be argueing with you mate, I am being tolerant... and it is NEVER personal.
You my friend are just as much entitled to your opinion as I am, and the beauty of our lives is that we do not need to agree with each other to be friends (trust me, I tell my wife this every time we argue), like true humans we can respect each other and like each other even when we disagree and probably more so, this is tolerance, and this is where I think religion fails us.

Now imagine a muslim cleric (just as a topical example) who comes out and states that it is OK for this person to have made a movie about the prophet and that the community needs to show empathy for such a simple minded person, the prophet and the god will take care of it if indeed they are offended, or indeed the simple ignoring of such a movie so it didn't even register a reaction would show how trivial the movie actually was. Take budhists for example, there have been many comedies depicting them in a less than humble situation, and yet not a peep is heard, all this makes people want to get to know the peace loving budhists even more.

However what we see is violence and counter violence in the name of god. So what are these people being taught and by whom?

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PostSat Sep 29, 2012 12:32 pm » by Phaeton


Iwanci wrote:Phaeton I respectfully do not disagree with you my friend.

I do not however entirely agree with you either.

We often say 'guns dont kill humans, people kill humans'... now, imagine for one second a world without guns? The sying will then become... 'humans kill humans'... no mention of guns.

I dont get your point here Iwanci, lest you are underwriting mine.

I agree wholeheartedly that humans are responsible for their actions, and I know there is a fine line between sanity and insanity, however, why make it that much easier for people to cross that line?

Do you offer that a gun, or religion, makes it easier for people to cross 'the border of insanity'?
If guns didnt exist, said person would use another tool. If religion didnt exist, said person would 'be negative' under another flag [ideologies come in all shapes and sizes, political - religious - ethnical etc etc]. I would pose the movie '12 Monkeys' as an apt example ['Gaya terrorism'].


Religion is a tool used for good in many instances, I am not religious (although I was raised very closely with religious teachings), I am a believer however. I believe that religious dogma and teachings per se are not bad, on the contrary, I believe it brings solace and a sense of belonging to the many people who struggle to find meaning or acceptance in their lives, anything that brings people together in my opinion cannot be bad.

Again, if the mental health of the subject at hand is good, the tool will in all plausibility be used for positivity. The tool is not intrinsically bad, it is the hand of the wielder that decides the outcome. If the mental health of the subject is bad, a tool that is normally used for good could be used for intrinsically negative actions. 'Child protection services' taking children away from their parents while the parents have done nothing remotely justifying the removal of said child, Roman Catholic Priests abusing kids while their parents think they are in good hands learning about the Father, poor - uneducated extremists who think they are fighting against the evil world, 'killing for a good cause' because their human 'teacher' tells them this is what G*d wants, a screwdriver in the hands of a mass murder can be made 'responsible' for countless deaths ['the screwdriver killer'] undsofort undsoweiter.


However, there is still the greater and overarching 'evil' doer with the wrong intention that is all too eager to use this tool for their own purposes. The scredriver is a great tool for turning screws, but manipulated could cause much harm. So we don't ban screwdrivers (I agree), but we must teach our people the true nature of the purpose. This is where religion fails miserably (IMO). It teaches tolerance only to the point that it does not offend itself, whereas in my world (mind) tolerance is best shown in the most extreme of cases, if you can live with it, it wouldn't be caled tolerance. True tolereance comes from making yourself live alongside, peacefully, with someone you do not agree with.

Apologies Iwanci, but what do you really know of what 'religion' teaches? Lets take the most timely example, Islam. The Qur'an teaches that religion should never be imposed, that Muslims - when living in a non Islamic country - should always adhere to and respect the law of the land they live in. As long as it doesnt make them do things their Scripture forbids. And even then, they are not to act against it physically - to destabilize the given society - but simply leave.

That is why when I appear to be argueing with you mate, I am being tolerant... and it is NEVER personal.
You my friend are just as much entitled to your opinion as I am, and the beauty of our lives is that we do not need to agree with each other to be friends (trust me, I tell my wife this every time we argue), like true humans we can respect each other and like each other even when we disagree and probably more so, this is tolerance, and this is where I think religion fails us.

And I would respectfully reply that I think your opinion is not based on facts, that you have not taken the time to check the contents of the respective scripture. To actually read it - take note of its contents - from front to cover and in context. I am not talking about 'organised religion' [religion / scripture manipulated - 'organised' by Man], Im talking about 'religion' [= scripture and scripture alone]. But that may be my faulty logic, I seem to be the only one who makes that discernment; the difference between religion and organised religion. But youll probably get my drift.

Now imagine a muslim cleric (just as a topical example) who comes out and states that it is OK for this person to have made a movie about the prophet and that the community needs to show empathy for such a simple minded person, the prophet and the god will take care of it if indeed they are offended, or indeed the simple ignoring of such a movie so it didn't even register a reaction would show how trivial the movie actually was. Take budhists for example, there have been many comedies depicting them in a less than humble situation, and yet not a peep is heard, all this makes people want to get to know the peace loving budhists even more.

You just verbalised my exact sentiment in that context. This is what I tell the Muslims I know for instance. Take pity on these yahoo's who think it wise to do such disrespectful, apexally ignorant actions. It is on their heads and their heads only. They are harming none but themselves, and as such it is unwise to act against it, lest you damage yourself in the process. The difference however between the Buddhist and Muslims congregation is legion. Besides the obvious absolute contrast of culture [Arab - volatile, almost unhealthy demand for honor Vs. Asian - docile, humble], there are external factors that manipulate the public eye against the Islamic variant and the 'Islamic congregation' itself - which was always manipulated from the inside as well btw. Lets not fool ourselves here, and establish that 'Islam' is the new 'Red Threat', the new 'enemy'. Targetted and used by present day political entities.

However what we see is violence and counter violence in the name of god. So what are these people being taught and by whom?

'What you see' isnt always reality. And I would add that especially in this day and age, it would be wise to question every 'consensus' that is served to you. Every picture that is fed to you by 'main channels' should be extremely scrutinized. Extremely scrutinized. Your last question is very relevant indeed, and I would reply they are being taught by people who have an agenda that has nothing to do with the teachings in scripture.

What we need to ask ourselves is what are we being shown, and who is showing us that, and for what reason?


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Take it ez bro, cheers.
:cheers:
"Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music"
"All our science measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - yet, in contemporary consensus, its the most precious thing we have"


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PostSun Sep 30, 2012 12:13 pm » by Iwanci


Yes phaeton, we agree on many stances and issues even if they are not apparent on screen.

EVERYTHING is a matter of persepctive, no?

Sanity, thin red line, all subjective and all depends on many variables. What is sanity?


What I know of religious teachings is what I have learnt through the many years of study. I know a lot, I am well versed, however I know nothing. Can one man truly know all that there is to know about every religion? I can only be guided by my learnings, my experience, my feelings, and these too change as I get older. My opinions reflect my sentiments and are absolutely correct 100% but only to me and only at that time, just like everyone else my friend.

The more I learn the more I learn that I am learning...

I rely very little on mainstream media, I see it as a movie, full of fantasy and there to portray a story not the reality. This I agree with you.

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PostSun Sep 30, 2012 2:08 pm » by Phaeton


Iwanci wrote:Yes phaeton, we agree on many stances and issues even if they are not apparent on screen.

EVERYTHING is a matter of persepctive, no?

Sanity, thin red line, all subjective and all depends on many variables. What is sanity?


What I know of religious teachings is what I have learnt through the many years of study. I know a lot, I am well versed, however I know nothing. Can one man truly know all that there is to know about every religion? I can only be guided by my learnings, my experience, my feelings, and these too change as I get older. My opinions reflect my sentiments and are absolutely correct 100% but only to me and only at that time, just like everyone else my friend.

The more I learn the more I learn that I am learning...

I rely very little on mainstream media, I see it as a movie, full of fantasy and there to portray a story not the reality. This I agree with you.

:cheers:


What exactly have you studied Iwanci? Have you read the Bible, the Qur'an? Completely, partly? Did you take the trouble to acqaint yourself with the context of any given verse? Id like to know.

Im especially interested in your knowledge of the Qur'an, as Islam is [obviously] the prime religion we all love to hate and 'lament about' these days.

And again, I completely agree that we know nothing.
"Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music"
"All our science measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - yet, in contemporary consensus, its the most precious thing we have"


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PostSun Sep 30, 2012 2:40 pm » by Mozi!!a


Where other men blindly follow the truth,
Remember, nothing is true
Where other men are limited by morality or law,
Remember, everything is permitted.


Nothing is true; everything is permitted


- Ezio Auditore De Firenze

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PostSun Sep 30, 2012 2:48 pm » by Phaeton


Demobe wrote:Where other men blindly follow the truth,
Remember, nothing is true
Where other men are limited by morality or law,
Remember, everything is permitted.


Nothing is true; everything is permitted


- Ezio Auditore De Firenze



I wholeheartedly disagree with everything that has just been quoted.

Truth is out there. We are just too limited to inherantly / effectively establish it.

And obviously, not everything is 'permitted'. Not by a long shot.

I can understand why some people would love to think so though.

Would absolutely love to pretend its a game. Lose all 'inhibitions'.

These are the popular concepts I was talking about in the prior post.

'There is no truth, so dont bother trying to discern it'.

'Dont worry about your actions, everything is permitted.'

Indeed, Do as thou wilt.

I think not.
"Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music"
"All our science measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - yet, in contemporary consensus, its the most precious thing we have"


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PostSun Sep 30, 2012 10:11 pm » by Mozi!!a


Phaeton wrote:
Demobe wrote:Where other men blindly follow the truth,
Remember, nothing is true
Where other men are limited by morality or law,
Remember, everything is permitted.


Nothing is true; everything is permitted


- Ezio Auditore De Firenze



I wholeheartedly disagree with everything that has just been quoted.

Truth is out there. We are just too limited to inherantly / effectively establish it.

And obviously, not everything is 'permitted'. Not by a long shot.

I can understand why some people would love to think so though.

Would absolutely love to pretend its a game. Lose all 'inhibitions'.

These are the popular concepts I was talking about in the prior post.

'There is no truth, so dont bother trying to discern it'.

'Dont worry about your actions, everything is permitted.'

Indeed, Do as thou wilt.

I think not.


When Nothing Is True. Then Evrything Thing iiiiis permitted. :flop:

This Is For PPL who Have And Have Not
The Muslims Definitely Have Not And Never Wil. That's What They Want

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PostMon Oct 01, 2012 8:58 am » by Iwanci


Phaeton, why would you be interested in knowing what I have studied my friend? To prove what, that I am better versed than you, or you than I? It makes no difference what I know or from what source, because ultimately I know nothing, so our knowledge levels are the same (give or take), this goes for everyone.

I am interestd in your thoughts that somehow everyone 'hates' the muslim religion??

Why do you think this? Is it becuase it is a popularist view point in your country? Or have we not learnt to see past all the rhetoric and did you not say not to believe everything you see/hear in the mainstream media? So, if we are to not to believe everything we see/hear in mainstream, why should we believe that the muslim religion is the most hated if we are recieving this message from the mainstream?

For the record, I do not HATE the muslim religion per se, I have a dslike for ALL religious dogma, not to get confused with 'belief'. I am a believer that to believe is perfectly healthy, but I also see 'religion' as stiffling to the belief system. For me belief is an evolutionary journey, one that develops with life experience, religion is one way to 'cap' that journey and the mainstream religious believer is bound or limited (IMO) to the religious teachings he/she subscribes to. This makes man and belief very inflexible, and probably the reason why we have so much intolerance in society.


Not to say I think your knowledge or belief is limited my friend, not at all you are extremely well versed, but just generally speaking I believe that when people limit themselves to one religious learning as the vast majority do, then they are limiting their ability to learn and to be tolerant.


Many are confused about belief because their views often conflict with any religion. They like some aspects and relate, but conflict with other aspects and so question themselves and their belief.

The real issue is that belief is not fact, by definition it is a theory. So, as with any theory they are all equally valid and all equally unproven, and, depending on what your 'belief' actually is and how much that conflicts or agrees with your current way of life or social economic political environment, then you are either a part or society or very much an outcast (or at least you may feel that way). Why? because with any religion you must conform to those ideals, there really is no room for common ground. This is the gospel and this is what you must do to follow it....

So, in 'your' learnings I am interested in understanding, which religion actually allows you to be cross denominational? ie, which religion allows you to believe in multiple religions? and to what point? I know there are comminalities between the religious teachings, but can you be a muslim and a jew at the same time? Can you be a catholic and a prodestant at the same time? If not, why not? Why cant a person believe in multiple learnings, and if they can, at what point does one religion frown upon the teachings of another, and why so?


See the point? limiting people's belief system is not healthy and stiffles ones' ability to be tolerant. So, my idea of education regarding tolerance cannot truly be achieved, I know this, simply because there are large variances between the religions and at some point they actually conflict on many topics, and it is at this point that all religions fail and the conflict manifests itself. All good until there's a disagreement, then we forget about the good and bring out the evil.


The Muslim world is so easily offended simply because the 'rest' of the worlds religions are intolerant of its teachings or misteachings. Just the same though from the other aspect, why are muslims so intolerant of other religions or beliefs? For exactly the same reasons. You go to a muslim country and you know that you must not offend the people's culture, muslims go to a western country and what do they do? They try and change the system or try to create a microcosm within that society (naturally I am generalising here, not all muslims do this obviously). Is there an instance where we hear of jews perhaps going to a muslim country and trying to alter the laws or trying to protest in the streets due to the harshness of the community? Nope, we don't hear of this because they wouldn't ever consider it because they would fear the repercussions. I am not anti muslim, be clear on this I have many devout muslim friends and family, but we all agree that there are extremes, and some religions encourage the extremes others play it down.


I know nothing... (on this we would probably agree yeah?) :wink:
Fortes fortuna iuvat


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