Why Time Travel Will Never Work

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PostSat May 08, 2010 10:33 pm » by Chronicnerd


Actually this is not true...and to avoid a lengthy post I will just lay out a very basic example:

If you know the velocity of our earth as it travels around our sun (we know this), the velocity of our solar system as it travels around our galaxy(we know this), and the galaxy's velocity as it travels through the universe (we know this), then you can *predict* where our earth would be 10 years from now. This is your point B...for simplicity sakes we will use a *drone* that will enter a hole (point A) no less than 2 lunar distances from earth that will connect to a hole no less than 2 lunar distances from where the earth will be 10 years from now on the space/time "plane".

Time for the drone as it enters this hole *close to the speed of light* would pass much slower for the drone relative to Earth. This is very fundamental physics...the close you approach the speed of light the slower time passes for the object approaching the speed of light relative to a reference point like Earth. So, while the drone might not travel the same *distance* when passing through the hole (much shorter), it will do so in a much *shorter period of time* relative to time for observers on Earth. As the drone entered the hole, it would *appear* to almost *stop* if you could view it passing through the hole or even into the hole...to us on Earth...it might take several years for the entire *signature* of the drone entering the hole to "fade away"...whether the signature was electromagnetic, gravitational, and/or light refractive/reflective based.
So, upon the drone completing its journey, relative to the drone, maybe only 10 days (depending upon the maximum speed reached) to travel from point A, Earth of the present, to Point B, earth of the future predicted location. However, for us on earth, 10 years would have passed...and as such...relative to things on our planet...10 years *worth of motion* will have passed...
This is *traveling into the future*....but not like in the movies...
Then there is the subatomic particle spin communication technology that most people are not aware of...
http://colossalstorage.net/home_entangled.htm
"Entangled Particle Communication proposed is thousands of times faster than the speed of light."
Entangled subatomic particles basically work like this: there are two subatomic particles that are *entangled*, and as such they react when one of the other pair has a *change* to it, so you have entangled particle A and entangled particle B, when entangled particle A has its *spin* changed to the opposite direction, the entangled particle B will automatically change its spin to mirror the entangled particle A...and will do so almost instantly...much faster *than the speed of light*. This gets into some pretty heavy quantum physics math, so you can go run around and read up on this if you are curious.

The point being, is that upon the drone arriving, if it had a specialized communication device that uses this *entangled* particle concept, then the drone could *theoretically* start communicating *data* about the earth in an almost *serialized* fashion by changing the spin of a set of entangled particles. So, seeing as *distance* is not a factor, it is possible for the drone to communicate information that could be read from the paired device on earth throughout that 10 year period.
While it is not actually "physically" going to some "weirdo world" time dimensional period...like many proposed in the past... Hawking, Kaku, Einstein, and several thousand theoretical physicists around the globe from many time periods all agree that *a form of time travel* can most definitely be achieved, and if we add some of the quantum physics entanglement theory into the mix we could actually *receive data about our earth sometime in the future* which would help from a weather, military, and life threatening aspect...
It is possible...but not exactly like you might imagine...however...you still could get something like a "looking glass" device that allowed you to see "data" about the future before the future happened. You have to remember time is bound to motion, and if our motion stays *relatively constant* (i.e. the earth) through the space/time plane and the drone would *approach but not beat the speed of light* and yet it used a form of communication that was many times faster *than the speed of light*...then the communication could travel faster between the two points...so almost as soon as the drone *appeared* to enter the hole your communication device on earth would begin to receive data from the drone that was at a point in time *in the future*...there is some crazy math that applies to all of this...but the generalized "concept" works.
Never...be so quick to say "Never"...always question...limits are only imposed upon us based on our own ignorance of how the universe works...historically we have so many cases where people would say "you will never fly", "you will never reach outer-space", "you will never reach another continent because the world is flat", etc...
Not to attack any one person regarding what one might know or what one might *not* know...I think anyone who says "it is impossible" or "it will never happen" is only limiting themselves as well as those around you...this Universe is a HUGE place...and has TONS of things we have NO CLUE about...the minute we let go of thinking we *know* and understand we are all here to *learn*...is the minute we begin to make actual progress as a society...until then we will always have people who think they *know*...heck...look at medicine...back in the 70's they used to tell everyone "Eat raw eggs" as a good source of protein (remember Rocky?)...until in the 80's we realized the Yolk was filled with this bad fat that caused heart problems...so then everyone started eating "the white of the eggs"...until we found out that actually there was "good and bad" cholesterol...
The bottom line...until scientists quit looking for *why something can't happen* trying to *cling to what they know to be true* (i.e. people don't like change)...and start opening up and asking *how could we make this happen*...we will always have people out there that are not *helping* solve these mysteries but rather creating "road blocks to technological and sociological changes".
I prefer to be on the side that is more *optimistic* and *searches for the how to* as opposed to the *it can't be done* groups...

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PostSat May 08, 2010 11:19 pm » by Mushroom


chronicnerd wrote:Actually this is not true...and to avoid a lengthy post I will just lay out a very basic example:

If you know the velocity of our earth as it travels around our sun (we know this), the velocity of our solar system as it travels around our galaxy(we know this), and the galaxy's velocity as it travels through the universe (we know this), then you can *predict* where our earth would be 10 years from now. This is your point B...for simplicity sakes we will use a *drone* that will enter a hole (point A) no less than 2 lunar distances from earth that will connect to a hole no less than 2 lunar distances from where the earth will be 10 years from now on the space/time "plane".

Time for the drone as it enters this hole *close to the speed of light* would pass much slower for the drone relative to Earth. This is very fundamental physics...the close you approach the speed of light the slower time passes for the object approaching the speed of light relative to a reference point like Earth. So, while the drone might not travel the same *distance* when passing through the hole (much shorter), it will do so in a much *shorter period of time* relative to time for observers on Earth. As the drone entered the hole, it would *appear* to almost *stop* if you could view it passing through the hole or even into the hole...to us on Earth...it might take several years for the entire *signature* of the drone entering the hole to "fade away"...whether the signature was electromagnetic, gravitational, and/or light refractive/reflective based.
So, upon the drone completing its journey, relative to the drone, maybe only 10 days (depending upon the maximum speed reached) to travel from point A, Earth of the present, to Point B, earth of the future predicted location. However, for us on earth, 10 years would have passed...and as such...relative to things on our planet...10 years *worth of motion* will have passed...
This is *traveling into the future*....but not like in the movies...
Then there is the subatomic particle spin communication technology that most people are not aware of...
http://colossalstorage.net/home_entangled.htm
"Entangled Particle Communication proposed is thousands of times faster than the speed of light."
Entangled subatomic particles basically work like this: there are two subatomic particles that are *entangled*, and as such they react when one of the other pair has a *change* to it, so you have entangled particle A and entangled particle B, when entangled particle A has its *spin* changed to the opposite direction, the entangled particle B will automatically change its spin to mirror the entangled particle A...and will do so almost instantly...much faster *than the speed of light*. This gets into some pretty heavy quantum physics math, so you can go run around and read up on this if you are curious.

The point being, is that upon the drone arriving, if it had a specialized communication device that uses this *entangled* particle concept, then the drone could *theoretically* start communicating *data* about the earth in an almost *serialized* fashion by changing the spin of a set of entangled particles. So, seeing as *distance* is not a factor, it is possible for the drone to communicate information that could be read from the paired device on earth throughout that 10 year period.
While it is not actually "physically" going to some "weirdo world" time dimensional period...like many proposed in the past... Hawking, Kaku, Einstein, and several thousand theoretical physicists around the globe from many time periods all agree that *a form of time travel* can most definitely be achieved, and if we add some of the quantum physics entanglement theory into the mix we could actually *receive data about our earth sometime in the future* which would help from a weather, military, and life threatening aspect...
It is possible...but not exactly like you might imagine...however...you still could get something like a "looking glass" device that allowed you to see "data" about the future before the future happened. You have to remember time is bound to motion, and if our motion stays *relatively constant* (i.e. the earth) through the space/time plane and the drone would *approach but not beat the speed of light* and yet it used a form of communication that was many times faster *than the speed of light*...then the communication could travel faster between the two points...so almost as soon as the drone *appeared* to enter the hole your communication device on earth would begin to receive data from the drone that was at a point in time *in the future*...there is some crazy math that applies to all of this...but the generalized "concept" works.
Never...be so quick to say "Never"...always question...limits are only imposed upon us based on our own ignorance of how the universe works...historically we have so many cases where people would say "you will never fly", "you will never reach outer-space", "you will never reach another continent because the world is flat", etc...
Not to attack any one person regarding what one might know or what one might *not* know...I think anyone who says "it is impossible" or "it will never happen" is only limiting themselves as well as those around you...this Universe is a HUGE place...and has TONS of things we have NO CLUE about...the minute we let go of thinking we *know* and understand we are all here to *learn*...is the minute we begin to make actual progress as a society...until then we will always have people who think they *know*...heck...look at medicine...back in the 70's they used to tell everyone "Eat raw eggs" as a good source of protein (remember Rocky?)...until in the 80's we realized the Yolk was filled with this bad fat that caused heart problems...so then everyone started eating "the white of the eggs"...until we found out that actually there was "good and bad" cholesterol...
The bottom line...until scientists quit looking for *why something can't happen* trying to *cling to what they know to be true* (i.e. people don't like change)...and start opening up and asking *how could we make this happen*...we will always have people out there that are not *helping* solve these mysteries but rather creating "road blocks to technological and sociological changes".
I prefer to be on the side that is more *optimistic* and *searches for the how to* as opposed to the *it can't be done* groups...


:?: :?: :?: What :o

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PostSat May 08, 2010 11:51 pm » by Allreadydead


Time is relative, e.g. if you boil a kettle and make coffee, then at what point can you change time, when you lit the gas?, when you put coffee in the cup? when you stirred it? When you drunk it?

Can any of this be changed?

No, because your constained by the reallity of your actions, by the reallity of what has happened - it has become the past - it has gone - forever! You can not go back and not switch the ketle on! It's a done deal and thus you can never not switch the kettle on! Because by not switching the kettle on you change something that cannot be changed, it has already happened!

Time does not exist in the real world, it's something man has invented as a measurement, of his existance, and thus, since it doesn't exist, cannot be changed! The world, the solar systems, have existed for years, by our measurement, but they exist in real time and space, and cannot be altered, be changed, be travelled within, they exist now and that's all we need to know - time is a false thing, we measure it and have no idea what it really is, we cannot go back, we cannot go forward, we have only the present and thats but a fleeting second of existance before it's the past!

Imagine a film that runs for twenty minutes,at what point do you stop it? After twenty minutes?, thirty minutes? you can stop the film at any time, but the whole movie still exists, all two hours of it!

That's time - it knows no master, it knows no length, it cannot be controlled and it can only be travelled one way - forward. Time travell is only possible by Dr.Who and that's a T.V. series!

Previous time has gone, future time has yet to happen, all we have is the present - and that's what we should be concerned about!
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PostSun May 09, 2010 12:50 am » by G3n3sis


I do not wish to discuss points about time and light speed, until anyone has read Walter Russells work. Ill stand on the sidelines :flop:
"The Sign of an Educated Mind is that, Which can Entertain a Notion or Idea Without Accepting it"

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PostSun May 09, 2010 1:53 am » by Ghost32


I agree with svaha and others, light does not move anywhere! The birth and death of a photon are the exact same moment , yet our brains try to strech out this zero point interval and we percieve the light as traveling across a room or space & time ect, I think we all know from the studies of eienstein that time slows down as you approach the speed of light , thus a photon travelling at the speed of light experiences no time nor space & no mass!

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PostSun May 09, 2010 4:52 pm » by Dtnelis


what if you were to speed up the "beats" of an object in our percieved time, by using lets say lasers

http://www.youtube.com/v/hhSE8oM-ZMg&hl=en_US&fs=1&


... wouldnt that make the object appear to time travel?

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PostSun May 09, 2010 7:33 pm » by Chronicnerd


allreadydead wrote:Time is relative, e.g. if you boil a kettle and make coffee, then at what point can you change time, when you lit the gas?, when you put coffee in the cup? when you stirred it? When you drunk it?

Can any of this be changed?

No, because your constained by the reallity of your actions, by the reallity of what has happened - it has become the past - it has gone - forever! You can not go back and not switch the ketle on! It's a done deal and thus you can never not switch the kettle on! Because by not switching the kettle on you change something that cannot be changed, it has already happened!

Time does not exist in the real world, it's something man has invented as a measurement, of his existance, and thus, since it doesn't exist, cannot be changed! The world, the solar systems, have existed for years, by our measurement, but they exist in real time and space, and cannot be altered, be changed, be travelled within, they exist now and that's all we need to know - time is a false thing, we measure it and have no idea what it really is, we cannot go back, we cannot go forward, we have only the present and thats but a fleeting second of existance before it's the past!

Imagine a film that runs for twenty minutes,at what point do you stop it? After twenty minutes?, thirty minutes? you can stop the film at any time, but the whole movie still exists, all two hours of it!

That's time - it knows no master, it knows no length, it cannot be controlled and it can only be travelled one way - forward. Time travell is only possible by Dr.Who and that's a T.V. series!

Previous time has gone, future time has yet to happen, all we have is the present - and that's what we should be concerned about!


Watch Sci-Trek: Time Travel with host Michio Kaku, he explains it pretty well. With your "kettle" theory, and strictly talking traveling into the future not past, why is it so hard to believe that you could travel into the future? If you were frozen (cryogenics) and then awoke 100 years later but you were the exact same age, would you not have "traveled" into the future?

While it is not your "typical" idea of time travel...I think there is a misconception on what that really is...

Time is nothing more than our ability to perceive energy as it exists in this three dimensional representation of the Universe. This energy has a specific motion, and the rules of motion apply...so if you know the rotation of the Earth down to the pico-meter scale you can pretty much predict where the earth was yesterday, last year, twenty years ago, a billion years ago...it is the law of motion. Now, this "law of motion" is something that we need to look at, as it is a "rule" of this Universe, and as such the "Universal" understanding/consciousness is that of motion...in other words...somewhere a billion billion light years away there are masses of energy in the forms of planets, suns, asteroids, and the like...all interacting with one another and following the same rule...while we are not aware of this "motion" we cannot predict where those objects/energy masses will be...and as such we have no "reference point" to base any form of calculation off of...and as such we cannot predict those bodies' motion and interaction. However, if you did know all of their interactions and motions through some form of ability to record all energy in the universe for any period of time, then you would have the ability to track said motion and "browse" through the periods of time...because once this time line has happened...it has happened...and that motion "memory" has already occurred and will "always be" relative to this time line.

So, if I put a kettle on the stove after you were frozen, and then "unfroze" you 15 minutes after it boiled...you would have only perceived say about 15 seconds (or so) relative to my perceived 15 minutes as well your body would have only had 15 seconds (or so) of motion applied to it (because you were frozen and the motion of your "energy signature" slowed down because all "freezing" is really...is the extraction of "energy states"...and this gets down to the super-cooled super-conductive/magnetic stuff and how super-cooling things yields strange results on how it interacts with non-supercooled things.).

So...your body would have experienced "less time/motion" than mine during the heating of the kettle...and as such you would be "from the past" relative to my motion in the 15 minute future...because past is really an expression of "already passed time" which really translates to "already passed motion of energy"...and as such your "energetic motion" relative to my "energetic motion" during that fifteen minute period would be much less than mine...and as such your perception as well as your energetic state would be "from the past" and further increasing your energetic interaction with the present and the future.

Time travel through increased motion is a similar concept, as Einstein's well known equation E=MC^2 proves that as you approach the speed of light your mass becomes so "heavy" that your over all motion (interaction) with the space time plane slows down. So, as you approached the speed of light your perception of things would slow down as the over all "motion" of your body (even on an atomic level) would slow down due to its increase in (M)ass due to its increase in (E)nergy as you are (A)ccelerated towards the speed of light. Acceleration is the excitation of a mass body from a lower energetic state to a higher energetic state, and as such energy is transformed from the fuel (potential energy) to a reaction that "injects" energy into nearby mass bodies(i.e. your atoms and the car and/or space ship) that, in turn, change the motion/energetic state of the nearby mass bodies. Much like that of a piston when the gas explodes in a car engine...the energy displaces the piston...

So, increasing speed increases motion which increases energy which increases mass, which as the mass becomes a very very large number your time, relative to some one on say earth. All you are really doing is invoking the similar scenario as was discussed when we talked about freezing...changing your energetic state relative to other mass bodies. Once their motion has happened...it has happened...in this time line...

I could fix a cup of tea and we could talk about parallel universes...but that could take a few pages! ;)

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PostSun May 09, 2010 8:00 pm » by Dracos1


Whenever I think of time travel, I imagine that if I left through time and move forward or backwards I be lost do to alternate time limes that may happened because something came from what I can only imagine as another dimension into the targeted time period. I do not think time would be at the same place I left when I try to get to the exact moment I came from, as I was reading this post I now think that if there was a piece of hardware to target the time I want to get back to, I probably be able to find my position again, like a laser targeting a building before a bomb is drop.
All this is only speculation, as I am not a scientist or have any technical background or even have a clue as what exactly is time and space. :help:

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PostMon May 10, 2010 1:55 am » by Purebase


i posted the below paragraph in another thread relating to space travel. but i think it fits nicely with time travel and other dimensions aswell.

i cant help but think of the movie Contact. im sure most of you have seen it. i think that if enough manipulation to the fabric of space from controlled magnetic forces would be capable of creating the holepunch needed to slip through spacetime. However just like in the movie i think we as observers would witness nothing at all really happened you would see a craft or whatever used just travel in a forward motion and thats it. but to the experiencer you would indeed travel somewhere. . i personally think they know this would happen. because on the molecular scale they have been able to move them from point A to B. but really the atoms are in both places at once. they react like electrons and nuetrons, popping in and out of existence all the time constantly. It seems as though they are trying to replicate quantum mechanics on the large scale experiment. this could be the secret to it all. :think:
"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either".
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PostMon May 10, 2010 2:08 am » by Anuki


svaha wrote:Light does not move at all, space and time are connected, when I change time, I change space.
That's why time travel is possible.


:flop:

Space/Time Continuum - a thesis
by David Faige

Page 1 of 3


Purpose of this Thesis
This thesis does not cover the mathematics of the space/time continuum and its characteristics. Other individuals in academia have covered the mathematics very well. The purpose of this thesis, therefore, is to provide a visualization of the characteristics of the space/time continuum and offer directions for future discovery.

This is a work in progress. Certain elements require further discussion and I will make revisions to the text according to comments I receive.

Definition
A very simple definition: space and time considered together as one entity.

Mathematically: Einstein's field equation.

For simplicity's sake, this thesis uses the following definition for space/time continuum:

The space/time continuum is a collection of parametric specifications that attempt to define is. The specifications can be as single values and thus define a specific point in space/time, or they can be continuous and define an entire entity.

Curvature of Space/Time
It is well known that the space/time continuum is curved. The curvature occurs as a result of the influence of mass against movement in time. Recently, it has been possible to detect this curvature. As three-dimensional beings, we perceive time only as a result of memory. We remember what was as a variable interval from what is now. If we had zero memory, we could not detect time - we would exist only for the moment. The result of this is our apparent perception of time as a linear line, always going forward.

Example of linear time:

Image

This is similar to primitive peoples perceiving the Earth as flat. It could be infinite - the horizon always kept bringing something new no matter how far they traveled; or, it could be finite, in which case there was the risk of falling off the edge.

Note: The terms three-dimensional, fourth-dimensional, and any other references to dimension in regards to "beings" means only that the being can directly perceive that many dimensions. A three-dimensional being cannot directly perceive the fourth dimension; the three-dimensional being can only infer its existence. The fourth dimensional being can directly perceive the fourth dimension. However, almost all objects exist in all dimensions.


Important: a dimension does not need to be detected to exist. If we had no memory of the interval we label as "time," our existence in space/time would still occur.

In its simplest form, a curve, extended infinitely, becomes a circle (or, better yet, a sphere). A sphere, when looked at microscopically without precision, would appear as a flat surface, just like primitive people perceived the Earth. Only when enough of the Earth was explored and technology was developed adequately could the true form of Earth be determined. The same holds true for three-dimensional beings trying to grasp the dimension of time. We need to perceive/detect the macroscopic view in order to determine form.

For the initial attempts at perceiving something outside of our normal senses, precision is not necessary. Einstein stated that space is finite but time is infinite. The problem here is that infinite is not calculable. We need to make it finite in order to progress. We can do this for time.

For practical purposes, time for any given object (such as a particle, an atom, a molecule, a person, a planet, a star, a galaxy, a universe) begins from that object's coming into existence and ends when that object ceases to exist in that form. (Never mind the fact that energy cannot be destroyed, only changed in form. We are dealing here in non-precision in order to get a finite value for the initial attempts.) If the object's existence in time was linear, the object's existence might appear to a fourth-dimensional being as a sphere. However, to the third-dimensional being, time seems like a straight line going on forever. Both are correct from their individual points of reference. A fourth-dimensional being could traverse this time continuum simply by going from point A to point B, because that being can perceive that dimension. The third-dimensional being cannot.

Note: in this thesis, the term being is used in a symbolic way to denote an object that is aware of condition and change in environment - whatever that environment may be. As we are dealing with different dimensions, assuming that the term being refers to the human or humanoid form could lead to erroneous conclusions.

Objects whose X, Y, Z axis change (objects in motion) do not exist in time linearly. You cannot change your position in the X, Y, and Z axis without also changing your position in T in a nonlinear fashion. A perceived fixed object (a stone lying on the ground, a building, a mountain) does move as a consequence of movements through space (Earth orbital, geologic, etc.) and the force moving the object through time. So, even perceived fixed objects move within the space/time continuum - there are no true stationary objects.

Could a stasis field cause an object to cease moving in space/time? Nature abhors lack of motion just as much as it abhors a vacuum. A perfect stasis field might be difficult to achieve. Maybe an object might have its movement through space/time retarded to a more or less degree, depending on the success of generating a stasis field around the object.

Because existence in time is nonlinear, assuming a perfect sphere as the form of an object's existence in the fourth dimension is not correct. More likely, the object's existence might be as an ever changing stream. The whole of space/time could then be considered as bundles of streams intertwining, bundling, dispersing out, merging in. Or, the form may be a cloud with voids and dense areas. Ultimately, space-time could have a recognizable form, once perceived on a large scale.

However, for nonprecision calculation purposes, the best analogy of an object's existence in space/time is as a ball of yarn gradually increasing in size. There is a beginning (the object's coming into existence). The object continues to exist nonlinearly - the windings of the yarn gradually making the ball larger. The point here is at any given moment in the object's existence, time is finite. Always in motion and always with infinite possibilities. Yet, nonetheless finite when we do not require precision. And, even though the possibilities for that object are infinite, the object seldom strays from a certain mean - thus the ball of yarn analogy. For example, consider repetitive motions (routines, cycles). These motions repeat, but never precisely - just like adjacent strands in the ball of yarn.



More here, sourse:http://www.west.net/~ke6jqp/spacetime/spacetime.html


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