Will Science Rule Out the Possibility of God?
peterxdunn wrote:When our extraterrestrial visitors finally reveal their presence in a spectacular  and undeniable  fashion, science will no longer need to disprove the existence of god. People  of all persuasions  will suddenly understand the deception that has been perpetrated against them since the days of ancient Sumer and there will be an awful lot of priests, imams and politicians joining the unemployment register.
Bring it on.
But ET turning up won't change anything...
Believers in God will just state that God created everything including extraterrestrials...
If ET says God doesn't exist, can you trust them.? Would you trust them.?
RIK
"Theres A Storm Coming!"
Poooooot wrote:Daemonfoe wrote:Infinity goes both directions. But in the case that it doesn't, take the idea of infinity, and negative infinity, combine them, then what would be the opposite of that? 0, 1, or 1?
If you consider infinity to go in both directions (outward forever away from zero on both the positive and negative scale), then the opposite of infinity is null.
If you think infinity can only go in one direction (positives) because negative numbers are an abstract, then negative infinity would be the opposite number, by simple math concepts.
If you take negative infinity plus infinity, you will get zero. Zero has no opposite.
But, if you really think about it, infinity is not just 1, 2, 3, 4, etc etc etc... It's all the possible slight increases/decreases in between each digit, as well. There is an infinite amount of numbers in between zero and one, really. Infinity is an abstract number in of itself, and it's impossible to calculate anything with it.
Long story short, both zero and infinity are imaginary, so it's all a moot point.
1 is also an abstract concept when looking at it outside the terms of math such as what we're doing when defining zero. 1 represents the idea of "whole". We generally use the number 100 or 100% to represent this, but the true representation of the idea is "1".
The two choices we have are something starting from nothing, or something existing infinitely. These are both paradoxes. The existence of everything is therefore a paradox. daemonfoe
Heres a thought... ( and i realise we have now moved right off topic . )
Doesn't Infinity exist BETWEEN 0 and 1.. Also 1 and 2... Also 2 and 3 and so on...
Think of the Mandelbrot. No matter how far into it you zoom it just keeps going on for ever.
Now think about counting from 0 to 1 in extremely small fractions. Say in trillion, trillion, trillionths to infinity.
Get what im saying. Can you actually ever count from 0 to 1 at such small scales.? If the fraction can be infinitesimally small then you can count from 0 to 1 forever.....
RIK
Doesn't Infinity exist BETWEEN 0 and 1.. Also 1 and 2... Also 2 and 3 and so on...
Think of the Mandelbrot. No matter how far into it you zoom it just keeps going on for ever.
Now think about counting from 0 to 1 in extremely small fractions. Say in trillion, trillion, trillionths to infinity.
Get what im saying. Can you actually ever count from 0 to 1 at such small scales.? If the fraction can be infinitesimally small then you can count from 0 to 1 forever.....
RIK
"Theres A Storm Coming!"
Richc wrote:Heres a thought... ( and i realise we have now moved right off topic . )
Doesn't Infinity exist BETWEEN 0 and 1.. Also 1 and 2... Also 2 and 3 and so on...
Think of the Mandelbrot. No matter how far into it you zoom it just keeps going on for ever.
Now think about counting from 0 to 1 in extremely small fractions. Say in trillion, trillion, trillionths to infinity.
Get what im saying. Can you actually ever count from 0 to 1 at such small scales.? If the fraction can be infinitesimally small then you can count from 0 to 1 forever.....
RIK
That's what I was trying to say. You are much more eloquent, though.
Poooooot wrote:But, if you really think about it, infinity is not just 1, 2, 3, 4, etc etc etc... It's all the possible slight increases/decreases in between each digit, as well. There is an infinite amount of numbers in between zero and one, really. Infinity is an abstract number in of itself, and it's impossible to calculate anything with it.
Matthew 7
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Poooooot wrote:Richc wrote:Heres a thought... ( and i realise we have now moved right off topic . )
Doesn't Infinity exist BETWEEN 0 and 1.. Also 1 and 2... Also 2 and 3 and so on...
Think of the Mandelbrot. No matter how far into it you zoom it just keeps going on for ever.
Now think about counting from 0 to 1 in extremely small fractions. Say in trillion, trillion, trillionths to infinity.
Get what im saying. Can you actually ever count from 0 to 1 at such small scales.? If the fraction can be infinitesimally small then you can count from 0 to 1 forever.....
RIK
That's what I was trying to say. You are much more eloquent, though.Poooooot wrote:But, if you really think about it, infinity is not just 1, 2, 3, 4, etc etc etc... It's all the possible slight increases/decreases in between each digit, as well. There is an infinite amount of numbers in between zero and one, really. Infinity is an abstract number in of itself, and it's impossible to calculate anything with it.
Oh yeh... lol... Sorry Poooooot.. Great minds think alike..
RIK
"Theres A Storm Coming!"
You guys are correct. Decimals can be infinitely small, but the idea of "singular" must exist for all numbers to exist. A person cannot count increments without 1. You cannot have decimals unless you fist have a whole number to base them off of. And decimals are all a representation of part of a whole, which is 1.
The two choices we have are something starting from nothing, or something existing infinitely. These are both paradoxes. The existence of everything is therefore a paradox. daemonfoe
Daemonfoe wrote:You guys are correct. Decimals can be infinitely small, but the idea of "singular" must exist for all numbers to exist. A person cannot count increments without 1. You cannot have decimals unless you fist have a whole number to base them off of. And decimals are all a representation of part of a whole, which is 1.
Yeh thats true.. Humans aren't yet intelligent enough to work with numbers unless they are whole numbers... But quantum computers on the other hand...
Is it possible a human will invent a computer that can prove or disprove God.?
A bit like Deep Thought in The Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy that calculated the answer to Life, the Universe and everything.... ( 42 )
RIK
"Theres A Storm Coming!"
Sorry I disagree..
If you can reach an end then that in itself negates the meaning of infinity.. no?
So, no matter how long it takes you to count from 0 to 1, the fact remains that eventually you WILL get to 1, hence, infinity does not exist.
Infinity can only exist when you can never reach it, otherwise, no matter how long the journey, it will be finite... as opposed to Infinite.
Likewise, if something is there (present) it can never be 'not' there... ie, if you have 1 then be definition you cannot have 0. You can only have true 0 when there is nothing, having something, no matter how small negates the notion of nothing.
So will we ever know a true 0 or a true infinity? Only in theory... imo...
If you can reach an end then that in itself negates the meaning of infinity.. no?
So, no matter how long it takes you to count from 0 to 1, the fact remains that eventually you WILL get to 1, hence, infinity does not exist.
Infinity can only exist when you can never reach it, otherwise, no matter how long the journey, it will be finite... as opposed to Infinite.
Likewise, if something is there (present) it can never be 'not' there... ie, if you have 1 then be definition you cannot have 0. You can only have true 0 when there is nothing, having something, no matter how small negates the notion of nothing.
So will we ever know a true 0 or a true infinity? Only in theory... imo...
Fortes fortuna iuvat
Iwanci wrote:Sorry I disagree..
If you can reach an end then that in itself negates the meaning of infinity.. no?
So, no matter how long it takes you to count from 0 to 1, the fact remains that eventually you WILL get to 1, hence, infinity does not exist.
Infinity can only exist when you can never reach it, otherwise, no matter how long the journey, it will be finite... as opposed to Infinite.
Likewise, if something is there (present) it can never be 'not' there... ie, if you have 1 then be definition you cannot have 0. You can only have true 0 when there is nothing, having something, no matter how small negates the notion of nothing.
So will we ever know a true 0 or a true infinity? Only in theory... imo...
If you count from any number to 0 by subtracting half of the number, you will consistently become closer to 0 with every step, but never actually reach it. Decimals can be infinitely small.
If you count from 0 to 1, adding half of what is left during each increment, you will never reach 1.
The two choices we have are something starting from nothing, or something existing infinitely. These are both paradoxes. The existence of everything is therefore a paradox. daemonfoe
Ok here goes my crazy logic...
The only way you can count towards '0' is if you count backwards, if you are going backwards you will not advance and as such you are not adding anything... you cannot count from a negative to a positive (if this is your point) because you cannot add something to nothing because the nothing is not there.. eg, I want t add a wheel to my nonexistent car... I cannot do it... Likewise I cannot subtract a wheel from a nonexistent car. The only starting point for any mathematical equation is to start from 1.
eg. If I begin with the notion of negativity, say I have a negative 3 (3) then I add 5 to it... one could argue that I now have a 2 (3 + 5 = 2).. ok? Now, the reality of this equation is that I never had a 3 nor did I ever add 5 to get to the 2, the reality is that I simply only had 2 at that point in time, and that 2 started with 1. So whilst we can use equations like those you propose to illustrate a point of view, the harsh reality is that they can only be used for illustration purposes.
Now, imagine my car example... I start with negative 3 cars... is that possible? What would the difference be then to start with negative 20 cars? None whatsoever, because no matter how many negative cars I have (have not) got, the reality is that I have NONE, I cannot have negative.
Extrapolating further (before anyone says my logic is illogical – lol probably is), when we say we have a negative in temperature yeah? Like for example minus 10 degrees, do we really have a minus temperature or have we begun the counting too early? So for arguments sake if we started counting temperature at minus 10, then our 20 degree temp should really be 30 degrees, we cannot truly have negative temperature.. but like all things, we need to start the count somewhere to be able to gauge changes and to be able to illustrate meaning.
The only truth in 'infinity' is that you will never reach it. The only truth in '0' is that for it to exist it cannot exist. As soon as you prove the existence of either, you have proven that neither exists.
The only way you can count towards '0' is if you count backwards, if you are going backwards you will not advance and as such you are not adding anything... you cannot count from a negative to a positive (if this is your point) because you cannot add something to nothing because the nothing is not there.. eg, I want t add a wheel to my nonexistent car... I cannot do it... Likewise I cannot subtract a wheel from a nonexistent car. The only starting point for any mathematical equation is to start from 1.
eg. If I begin with the notion of negativity, say I have a negative 3 (3) then I add 5 to it... one could argue that I now have a 2 (3 + 5 = 2).. ok? Now, the reality of this equation is that I never had a 3 nor did I ever add 5 to get to the 2, the reality is that I simply only had 2 at that point in time, and that 2 started with 1. So whilst we can use equations like those you propose to illustrate a point of view, the harsh reality is that they can only be used for illustration purposes.
Now, imagine my car example... I start with negative 3 cars... is that possible? What would the difference be then to start with negative 20 cars? None whatsoever, because no matter how many negative cars I have (have not) got, the reality is that I have NONE, I cannot have negative.
Extrapolating further (before anyone says my logic is illogical – lol probably is), when we say we have a negative in temperature yeah? Like for example minus 10 degrees, do we really have a minus temperature or have we begun the counting too early? So for arguments sake if we started counting temperature at minus 10, then our 20 degree temp should really be 30 degrees, we cannot truly have negative temperature.. but like all things, we need to start the count somewhere to be able to gauge changes and to be able to illustrate meaning.
The only truth in 'infinity' is that you will never reach it. The only truth in '0' is that for it to exist it cannot exist. As soon as you prove the existence of either, you have proven that neither exists.
Fortes fortuna iuvat

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