Yet Another Religious Thread, However this one is Different.

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PostThu Sep 22, 2011 5:29 pm » by Troll2rocks


In the knowledge of possibly annoying other members, who believe in god, or do not believe in god with yet another religious thread, this one is a little different




People have their beliefs for a whole variety of reasons. I was raised to make my own mind up on these subjects, and I am by no means saying others here were not either.

My issue with religion is not the positive aspects (and there are some from my viewpoint) some religious people really do care for other people and will try to better their lives, even if it usually comes at the price of indoctrination

However I have to look back at the historical evidence confirming all the issues religion has started over the civilized centuries, all the scientific knowledge and set backs it has suppressed, all the people it has killed, all the people it condones being killed, the way it
sets nation against nation and man against woman.

And continues to do so.


However, with all that being said, the thing that really troubles me about religion is that I have come to realise that we are still so new as a so called intelligent species that religion is so fundamental to us filling the gaps to the things we do not know, and are perhaps not capable of knowing. In other words we are so low down on the evolutionary ladder of intelligence, that we are so far far away from being realistically able to consider ourselves "informed"

I think as life goes on (providing nature allows) the more we are going to turn to science as a civilization, the more we explain away, the greater the hunger to explain away the rest.

Some say science is the hunt for "god"

Others the hunt to prove there is no god.



The truth is, we do not know, but we think we have enough data to exclude the possibility, most certainly the existence of any god ever written about or praised on earth, but in the grand scheme, we do not know.


I mean at the very cutting edges of our understanding of quantum physics and quantum mechanics and all the fundamental principles involved, many top thinkers believe us to not even be real.

The matrix movies tapped into this stuff, and also incorporated most philosophical and religious texts into the narrative.

However the underlying idea, well that may not be far from the real truth. Ancestor simulation ? Believe it or not there are a great many top minds that believe this.


I also find fascinating the apparent discovery of a particle that knows when it is being watched.


However we know nothing really.

Except that one day the universe will go dark, the suns will burn out, gravity will loose control, all particles and atoms will stretch out of existence and all that will be left, will be the black holes that were at the the centre of galaxies and where dying suns gave there final light.

And even they will lose to the expansion of the universe, but they will be the last things to survive. (that we know of so far)


This being said, back on earth, lets think this over, is it really possible that the gods we write about on this insignificant spinning rock in a cluster of other bodies spinning around an insignificant star, which itself is just another system of countless others in a galaxy that is just one of countless others, in what may well be but one universe in a sea of infinite universes. That we have any kind of perspective or truth about a "god" ?


Or that we are even capable of understanding what a "reality" truly is ?



I gave up debating religion on Disclose TV a while back, simply because it is futile.

I had countless debates, some really interesting, but it always boiled down to this.


Reasoning vs Faith.


However there is a catch 22 here, and that is this...

I could give you a thousand reasons why I think religion and our perception of there being a god is wrong.

A believer could give me a thousand answers about how facts and reasoning mean nothing in the face of faith.


And who is wrong ?


The truth is, until we strip away at reality and venture deeper into the cosmos, like Schrodinger's Cat, we will remain both right and wrong at the same time.


The day life is found out in the universe, will be the death of most religions (as are written), as they themselves already understand this, and are now trying to incorporate a discovery of this kind into there ways of thinking.

Anybody who still believes words as written in books about gods and religion after this point, would have to start rethinking Earth's place in the grand scheme of things, and certainly disregard the texts as written.


Now what if other advanced races in the universe have "their" own gods, and decided to come to Earth and inflict "their" gods on us ?

Is faith a fundamental part of a growing civilization, that allows the biological to expand and grow, until all is consumed and survival of the species guaranteed, at which point it may well become obsolete and true advancement and knowledge can begin ?.


Unless of course, technology is the true evolutionary advancement, the defining intelligence that can strip emotion and religion out of the equation and focus on true progression in what ever way an intelligence would see fitting for its survival and gaining knowledge about its environment.


In short, I do not know, and neither do you.

We can pretend all we like.

We do not know, (yet)!.


However at the same time, we live in this universe, and in this universe, at the very basic levels, there can only ever be right or wrong, correct or false, when it comes down to the physical.

Until we know, we are Schrodinger's Cat, living in a box, where both possibilities exist at the same time.

And at this point in time, that is the truth.

:pray:
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PostThu Sep 22, 2011 5:34 pm » by 99socks


troll2rocks wrote:
Reasoning vs Faith.


However there is a catch 22 here, and that is this...

I could give you a thousand reasons why I think religion and our perception of there being a god is wrong.

A believer could give me a thousand answers about how facts and reasoning mean nothing in the face of faith.


And who is wrong ?


The truth is, until we strip away at reality and venture deeper into the cosmos, like Schrodinger's Cat, we will remain both right and wrong at the same time.





:D
belief-in-god-based-on-types-of-thinking-t59491.html


However, this is worth checking out as well...
http://threshingfloor-radio.podomatic.c ... 7_59-07_00
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/obamas-doj-silent-as-new-black-panthers-leader-incites-violence-in-ferguson_082014








I can't speak about how much of the Constitution is in effect anymore... But thank God we still somewhat resemble a Republic and not a democracy!


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PostThu Sep 22, 2011 5:37 pm » by Spock


So religion is no different from political or social leanings.

Take away religion, and you still have assholes.

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PostThu Sep 22, 2011 5:44 pm » by Newearthman


spock wrote:So religion is no different from political or social leanings.

Take away religion, and you still have assholes.

Spock, you are too funny in your own way :P

T2R's...Well said :cheers:
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PostThu Sep 22, 2011 5:48 pm » by Troll2rocks


spock wrote:So religion is no different from political or social leanings.

Take away religion, and you still have assholes.


:lol:

Of course you do, it is people who believe and people who don't.

Does religion make someone an arsehole, or lack thereof ?

The think fundamental values of what makes someone an arsehole is irrelevant to this conversation really, I think that is more social conditioning, people can be arseholes for a whole variety of reasons, not simply restricted to religious belief or lack of.


I can name just as many scientists who have been arseholes throughout history as I can popes.
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PostThu Sep 22, 2011 6:12 pm » by Cia212


troll2rocks wrote:However I have to look back at the historical evidence confirming all the issues religion has started over the civilized centuries, ...all the people it has killed, all the people it condones being killed, the way it sets nation against nation and man against woman.

You assume that killing is wrong, that religion is the source of this need to kill. And that one person's religion is just as valid - or not - as any other.

I would reject that basic assumption because even atheists - not all of course - promote the depopulation agenda. Which is a sanitized way of getting rid of billions of people.

People want to believe they are right, but become a fool once they are convinced. We always have to be open to new evidence, even in religious matters. But be alert that we know the difference between evidence and theories. We need to have courage in our convictions, but enough humility and charity to hear the opposition...even if the opposition turns out to be wrong. To misquote the Bible, sometimes it's okay to shake the sand from one's sandals and move along to the next town.

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PostThu Sep 22, 2011 7:09 pm » by Constabul


cia212 wrote:
troll2rocks wrote:However I have to look back at the historical evidence confirming all the issues religion has started over the civilized centuries, ...all the people it has killed, all the people it condones being killed, the way it sets nation against nation and man against woman.

You assume that killing is wrong, that religion is the source of this need to kill. And that one person's religion is just as valid - or not - as any other.

I would reject that basic assumption because even atheists - not all of course - promote the depopulation agenda. Which is a sanitized way of getting rid of billions of people.

People want to believe they are right, but become a fool once they are convinced. We always have to be open to new evidence, even in religious matters. But be alert that we know the difference between evidence and theories. We need to have courage in our convictions, but enough humility and charity to hear the opposition...even if the opposition turns out to be wrong. To misquote the Bible, sometimes it's okay to shake the sand from one's sandals and move along to the next town.


Don't believe he was making a statement that Religious people, vs non religious people kill more or less then the other. More that Religions generally purpose Non violence, or tenets against killing/murder. Yet, the track record of the "Heads" of the religion have Killed many in the name of their god, which their followers herd in towards the path directed. Even Buddhist have killed to promote their faith and beliefs, The Bön religion has been victim to these attacks and killings for centuries. Yet the perception is that the Buddhist are a non violent religion.

troll2rocks wrote:In the knowledge of possibly annoying other members, who believe in god, or do not believe in god with yet another religious thread, this one is a little different

People have their beliefs for a whole variety of reasons. I was raised to make my own mind up on these subjects, and I am by no means saying others here were not either...........

After saying all that Troll, how are you not more a star trek fan than a starwars fan. Family guy remake of starwars were better then the 3 original films ( :P )
And Star Trek Tackled the ideas and concepts you purpose in your post. ( :look: )

Good Post, and overall in agreement. :flop:
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PostThu Sep 22, 2011 7:31 pm » by Richc


I want to know what it would take for a believer in God, Jesus and the Bible to beleive that all of these things were extra terrestrial related.?

If aliens landed in Central park and told us that the bible was based on actual ET events would you believe them or would you still believe in the normal story.?

How much of a jump is it to believe in divine entities as in the bible to possible divine entities of the alien variety.?

I guess the question is..

What do you want God to be.? What do you expect God to be.? Why Can't God be a divine alien.?

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"Theres A Storm Coming!"

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PostThu Sep 22, 2011 7:39 pm » by Shemagh


What do you think of this guy's point of view?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14944470

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PostThu Sep 22, 2011 8:22 pm » by Constabul


shemagh wrote:What do you think of this guy's point of view?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14944470


Not really impressed overall, he is still arguing from a religious motive based stance.
He attempts to use double speak, in pointing out certain peoples view points and findings, to further his ideas of what things are, then says the opposite shortly after.
He makes the mistake of attributing individual bias towards one stance or the other.
Such as saying belief in the resurrection, is no more mythical then belief in scientific finding.
Which observed tested facts vs thinking something may have happened 2000ish years before any of us were there, is not different.

His live, and let live concept was really the only thing that carried any merit.
He basically operated from a premise of logic from absurdity, in attempting to bring scientific data down to the level of belief and faith in a religion, or myth.
Which does happen quite a bit.
Certainly science does not hold all the answers... Yet, and will be a long time before it comes close.(he mentioned this. while also mentioning it "believes it holds all the answers) Tho religion/myth does claim to have the answers, and they have books and holy men to tell you so, and tell you how to live. Some need that guidance, or authority to ensure they act civilized, but social civil practices are only a product of the society around them. Which varies depending where in the world you are, or what period in history, and will change as the future becomes the present. Also individuals will break from the "norm" and do bad things, as to what the society labels bad things.

Some, act "good" without the religious guidance or fear based motivation to act " good".
In the end, at this point as troll mentioned earlier, arguing the points really is a futile endeavor. Tho maybe, something will click for others with bits of information that does not fit the story. Tho some try to rationalize it anyway, Like the garden of eden being in north Africa, then changing location because Göbekli Tepe in Turkey, was discovered, and predated the african sites claimed.

it is all just smoke blown up your ass, to make you feel like it is all figured out, when we really know no more, or less in this department then any other person alive today or in the past did.

All ego based dribble.
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